PC - Minutes 11-09-81 (2)i
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CITY OF ROSEMEAD
F 8838 VALLEY BOULEVARD
ROSEMEAD, CALIFORNIA
PLANNING COMMISSION
SPECIAL MEETING
NOVEMBER 9, 1981
MINUTES
1. CALL TO ORDER - The special meeting, (continued from November 2, 1981), was
called to order by Chairman Lowrey at 7:30 p.m., in the Council Chambers of
Rosemead City Hall, 8838 Valley Boulevard, Rosemead, California.
The Pledge of Allegiance was led by Chairman Lowrey.
2. ROLL CALL - Present: De Cocker, Schymos, Lowrey, Ritchie, Mattern
Absent: None
Ex Officio: Kress, Dickey, Carmona, de Zara
PUBLIC HEARING
3. DESIGN REVIEW 81-6: Design review of a cogeneration facility proposed by
California Federal Savings & Loan Association for construction at their
facility located at 1515 Walnut Grove Avenue. (Continued from November 2,
1981)
(Please see the attached verbatim transcript of the subject meeting.)
Persons who addressed the Planning Commission during the public hearing were:
OPPONENTS:
W.G. Wilson, -
7924 Nannestad
South San Gabriel, California
Robert Kehne
4405 Rosemead Boulevard
Rosemead, California
Mrs. Russell Rauche
(address was not stated)
Estelle Holtz
8247 Bleeker Street
South San Gabriel, California
Leroy Abelson, Esq.
O'Neill & Huxtable
800 West First Street, Suite 200
Los Angeles, California
Gail Robles
2445 Muscatel Avenue
Rosemead, California
Holly Knapp
8367 Whitmore
Rosemead, California
Carol Gamboa
1826 Rosebrook Lane
South San Gabriel, California
Nels Roselund
8453 Yarrow Street
South San Gabriel, California
Marcos Aspeitia
8441 Sarah
South San Gabriel, California
Milton Weiner
8412 Sarah
South San Gabriel, California
Tom Enrico
8456 Yarrow
South San Gabriel, California
Planning Commission Minutes
Special Meeting - November 9, 1981
Page Three
It was moved by Commissioner Ritchie, seconded by Commissioner Mattern, to
approve the filing of a Negative Declaration for Design Review 81-6, with
the specific finding that with the incorporation of the conditions, there
will not be a significant effect on the environment.
ROLL CALL VOTE - Ayes: De Cocker, Schymos, Ritchie, Mattern
Noes: Lowrey
It was moved by Commissioner De Cocker, seconded by Commissioner Schymos, to
approve Design Review 81-6, subject to the conditions contained within the
initial study and those conditions as indicated by Commissioner Ritchie.
ROLL CALL VOTE - Ayes: De Cocker, Schymos, Ritchie, Mattern
Noes: Lowrey
4. ADJOURNMENT - There being no further business to come before the Commission,
Chairman Lowrey adjourned the meeting at 12:00 a.m.
Planning Commission Minutes
Special Meeting - November 9, 1981
Page Two
Walter Veljacic
George Ochoa
8216 Yarrow
1636 North Delta Street
South San Gabriel, California
South San Gabriel, California
Margaret Ysais
R.C. Dominguez
8451 Sarah
7874 La Merced
South San Gabriel, California
South San Gabriel, California
Steven Galindo
Oscar Arroyo
8458 Sarah
8329 East Rush Street
South San Gabriel, California
Rosemead, California
Edward Castillo
Mark Schwartz
3133 Evelyn Avenue
1638 North Delta Avenue
Rosemead, California
South San Gabriel, California
Loren Wrightmeier
8724 Valley Boulevard
Rosemead, California
Robert Chamiel
8235 Village Lane
Rosemead, California
David Sanchez
8816 Highpine
South San Gabriel, California
Sergio Leverde
9224 Ralph
Rosemead, California
Greg Valenzuela
8244 Bleeker Street
South San Gabriel, California
Phil Holtz
8247 Bleeker Street
South San Gabriel, California
Lou Shinen
8447 Drayer Lane
South San Gabriel, California
Jose Gonzales
8527 Drayer Lane
South San Gabriel, California
CERTIFIED COPY
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SNYDER HEATHCOTE INC.
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CITY OF ROSEMEAD, CALIFORNIA
PLANNING COMMISSION - REGULAR MEPTING
RE: DESIGN REVIEW 81-6
Rosemead, California
Monday, November 9, 1981
7:35 P.M.
REPORTEDBY BILLIE JU tiODGE, GSA 3535
OUR FILE N0. 771375
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
3055 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1010
LOS ANGELES, CA 90010
TELEPHONE (213) 388-2151
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CITY OF ROSEMEAD, CALIFORNIA
PLANNING COMMISSION - REGULAR MEETING
Monday, November 9, 1981
7:35 P.M.
THE PLANNING COMMISSION
MARVIN P. LOWREY, Chairman
ROBERT RITCHIE, Vice-Chairman
ROBERT DECOCKER
HOWARD E. MATTERN
PAUL W. SCHYMOS
LYDIA de ZARA, Secretary
ROBERT L. KRESS, City Attorney
JOHN E. CARMONA, Director of Planning
ROBERT T. DICKEY, Assistant City Manager
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
For Petitioner Mark Schwartz
For Applicant California
Federal Savings & Loan:
O'NEILL & HUXTABLE
BY: LeROY A. ABELSON &
JOSEPH E. FELDHAUS
LATHAM & WATKINS
BY: PETER H. BENZIAN
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ROSEMEAD, CALIFORNIA, MONDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 1981
7:35 P.M.
THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen out in the lobby,
there are empty seats in here. Why don't you come in and
take advantage of the seats and be comfortable.
Today we'll open the meeting. This a continued
meeting from November 2. So if you will all please rise,
we'll lead in the pledge of allegiance to the flag.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
THE CHAIRMAN: Could we have the roll call, please.
THE SECRETARY: Commissioner Decocker?
COMMISSIONER DECOCKER: Here.
THE SECRETARY: Commissioner Schymos?
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: Here.
THE SECRETARY: Commissioner Ritchie?
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Here.
THE SECRETARY: Commissioner Mattern?
COMMISSIONER MATTERN: Here.
THE SECRETARY: Chairman Lowrey?
THE CHAIRMAN: Here.
This is a continued meeting for the Design
Review for 81-6 and it's reconvened.
We'll ask for the staff report to come in.
We've heard all of the testimony from the proponents, from
the opponents. All the Commissioners have heard all the
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testimony and I'm sure they are all well read and all
briefed on the minutes.
Unless there is some new testimony, some new
information that somebody wants to bring forth, we'll go
with the staff report now and then we'll later come back
in case there is.
Mr. Carmona?
MR. CARMONA: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, audience,
as you may recall, for most of you that were here at the
last meeting, staff did make a presentation as far as other
facilities that staff had viewed. Once again I wish to
remind them, the Commission and the audience, that we have
employed Ultra Systems for technical review and advice as
far as the technical aspects of this particular review.
What I wish to say now, without reiterating
all of the past comments, is that we attempted when
I say "we," the technical staff and the regular planning
staff of the City attempted to review this thing from
a factual, pragmatic perspective, if you will, using facts
and established standards. The facts and standards are
contained within the file that is witnin the planning office
and was open for public review. To staff's knowledge, only
four individuals have come in and looked at this file.
I just point
that out
as a
point of
fact,
if
you will.
To
continue,
at
the last
hearing
a
number of
comments and specific concerns were raised. What we have
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attempted to do is to comment back or respond to those
individual comments. Along those lines, we have received
10 letters of protest and they have been included within
the Commissioners'
package and are now a
matter of
record.
I will briefly go
through the comments as
far back
either
the Commission or
the concurrence of the
Commission,
should
the audience have
specific questions in
regard to o
ur com-
ments back. I'm s
ure we'll be glad to answer them.
The first comment was this is a unique facility
with many unknowns. There are inconsistencies and reports.
Vibration has not been considered.
The response back was the specific comments
or components employed or proposed to be employed in the
facility are the state of the art component. If any spec-
ific component employed or proposed to be employed is new
or unique, it is a result of a combination of these com-
ponents. The techniques applied are utilized for acoustical
attenuation are all standard. It appears that the com-
mentor did not have the time to review the. applicable
material with sufficient detail.
What we're saying here is that we have been
able to estimate the sound decibels by the use of various
equipment in line. There was a question of whether 55 dBA
or 45 dBA was the standard that we were using as far as
a measurement for Code standard.
The 45 dBA or the lower County level was the
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point of reference that we were referring to. In other
words, we estimate the facility to have that property line
at the old location, not the proposed location, a decibel
reading of 44 decibels. We were measuring against a 45-
decibel standard.
We attempted to try to draw a parallel between
the cogeneration facility at a regular power plant or public
utility as far as emissions. In staff's review of this
project, particularly after the comments at the last hear-
ing and with the offer by Cal Fed to relocate the building,
we have included a summary of oh, I'll just summarize,
if I may.
That the cogeneration facility is more efficient
not strictly from an electrical generation perspective.
Cogeneration produces latent heat. That latent neat is
used for providing the air conditioning to this particular
facility. A regular utility production plant has an effi-
ciency rating of approximately 35%. This facility, because
they capture the waste heat, has an efficiency rating of
approximately 70%. That is using not only the generation
of their electricity, but their taking advantage of the
latent heat is more productive from an emissions perspec-
tive. I've summarized most of the comments.,
I have been asked to draw a difference between
a negative declaration and an EIR. More specifically, what
would be the advantages in staff's opinion to preparing
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an EIR at this point. It is an important question and I'll
try to make it brief.
A negative declaration is a statement that there
is no significant environmental effect to the environment.
Therefore, what they call a negative declaration is nothing
more than a finding and a statement that the project, in
this case the cogeneration facility, holds no environmental
effect. The way that is reached is through what we call
an. initial study. In this case it's broader than most
initial studies because we spent a great deal of time focus-
ing in on three different areas, sound, air emissions, and
esthetics.
The initial study should support the finding
in the negative declaration and, if warranted, contain mit-
gating measures or conditions to offset any potential sig-
nificant effect dealing with the environment. That's gen-
erally what a negative declaration is.
What an EIR is is a factual document, if you
will, the same as the negative declaration. The ditterence
is the significant environmental effects considered should
be considered from a long-term and short-term perspective.)
It has to contain discussion containing environmental
effects which cannot be mitigating. In other words, will
continue even though the project is improved. There could
be offsetting or negative effects that are going to con-
tinue. EIR would have to address that. Also alternatives
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to the project to include discussion of no project at all.
In essence, these are the differences between
an EIR and a negative declaration. Both are factual in
terms of what they're supposed to do, statements of infor-
mation. There is no approval or disapproval in regards
to a recommendation that should be contained within an EIR
or a negative declaration. They should point the way as
far as solutions to a particular problem.
The whole question of significant environmental
effect if we were to have two or three attorneys argu-
ing what is significant, they could'point to enough dif-
ferent case studies to honestly disagree with each other.
Significant environmental effect is not defined.
It's different in each case. It should be based on fact
as far as a measurement of what is significant. And that's
what we have attempted to do with our initial study in a
negative declaration.
Once again,- we are recommending approval of
the project as long as conditions or mitigating conditions
are attached to this project. Without those mitigating
conditions, we do feel potential environmental effects
result without those mitigating conditions.
This concludes the staff report. I would be
CE MA)?- S
happy to answer any questions. Mr. D..Ae-ris is in the
audience should we need him.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Carmona.
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With that, if there is anything else from the
opponents, we'll hear it at this time, anything that hasn't
been heard. As I said before, most of the testimony I'm
sure all the Commissioners understand it. It has been over
and over again.
Let me explain to you one thing. The proponents
have the burden of proof. So having the burden of proof,
they will be allowed to speak after any of the opponents
have a chance to speak and say what they want to speak at
that time. Now, if there is anybody in the audience that
would want to bring up anything new at this Commission,
if you would please stand and be sworn in.
THE SECRETARY: Please raise your right hand.
(Potential witnesses sworn.)
THE SECRETARY: Thank you. You may be seated.
MR. KRESS: Mr. Chairman and members of the audience,
the court reporter who is taking this proceeding down in
shorthand tonight has requested that each speaker, after
you give your name, if you would please spell your last
name. It would assist her greatly in preparing the tran-
scripts. And I ask you to do that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Sir?
MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, gentlemen of this Commis-
sion, my name is W.G. Wilson, W-i-1-s-o-n. I live at
7924 United States Street in South San Gabriel.
I sat all through last Monday's meeting and
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I went home feeling either this panel could not or would
not decide in favor of the public in spite of the outpouring
of public opinion that was expressed here last Monday and
I say that because I have had years of experience in appear-
ing before city councils, school boards and the county su-
pervisors and seeing the requests of people ignored.
A number of us sat down to figure out what we
could do as a last resort, and we decided to publish a
letter and present it to every businessman in Rosemead that
we could contact. And I've spent most of my time, the last
three days, calling on those businessmen. And I'm sure
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that everybody here will be interested in their opinion.
I found that they were very uninformed about
this project. Some of them thought that it was the City
of Rosemead that was building it. Some of them didn't know
anything about it. I couldn't find anyone who really knew
about it, so I had to explain the best of my.ability from
what I saw, learned, heard, sitting at this meeting last
Monday night, what it was all about. I don't need to go
into all of that detail with you folks here.
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I told them that we, the several thousand mem-
bers of the City of South San Gabriel, didn't believe that
we were going to get a fair deal from this Commission and
that, as a last resort, we were carrying the case to the
businessmen. And I explained the situation to them to the
best of my ability. I told them that the people up there
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were very upset
and that they
felt that if the City
Council
didn't care about our opinion or if the businessmen in this
community didn't care about our opinion, there wasn't any
reason on earth why we should bring our 90% of our business
to the City of Rosemead. We don't have a shopping center
up there. We can take.our business where it is appreciated.
(Applause.)
MR. WILSON: The next thing that happened was they
wanted to know about community redevelopment agencies, and
as usual they were very poorly informed about it. I ex-
plained again as best I could how the City Council had set
up a Redevelopment Agency. As you look in your tax bill,
it's in 55 cities in Los Angeles County. They floated bonds
and these bonds were sold. And this money was used to buy
property for redevelopment. It was supposed to buy property
that was depressed; for instance, like where K-Mart is on
San Gabriel Boulevard and Garvey. They used eminent domain
and cleared off all the property there. They pushed out
all the businesses, whether they wanted to go out or not.
They pushed out the homeowners and this was repeated all
over Southern California in the last years. And they used
this eminent domain where they couldn't get them out other-
wise. And then I explained, as it is explained again on
this bill, how the pace was set when this property was all
removed, the land cleared.
The tax base from Rosemead was froze at that level and
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the tax increment from all of the improvements in the case
of inflation from that day forward, nobody knows how long,
went to the Redevelopment Agency. In the case of
Rosemead and again, I refer to this list here in the
past two years, $1,700,000 increment has been diverted.
Now, these are the County figures. $1,700,000 of Rosemead's
tax dollars were diverted to the Redevelopment Agency. That
is money that was collected to go to our schools, to our
police and to maintain our city. And I would like to make
one more example of what has happened in 55 cities. I won't
begin to take up your time on all of them, but I want to
make two more points here.
The City of Los Angeles is on the radio or on
the television all the time saying that the tax base has
been wrecked by Proposition 13. They are on there telling
you that President Reagan has reduced their welfare. They
can't get money from the State of California anymore. But
never, never, never have they told you in the past two years
$28 million was diverted from the tax rolls from the City
of Los Angeles to the Community Development Agency. And,
gentlemen, this has been going on for 15 or 20 years.
Now, to bring it down to the County and how
it affects us in South San Gabriel, where we do not have
a redevelopment agency, the total that they give here for
the 55 cities in the county is $178 million in two years.
You divide that by the 2 million taxpayers in the county
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and it comes out to about $89 per person average. Everybody
is hit by it. And we get hit twice.
Most of these cities are scrambling to find
ways to collect new taxes to make up for the money that
has been diverted from normal use. Thirteen of them were
unfortunate enough to try to use an illegal means, and it
has been test-cased on one of them in San Gabriel Valley.
It has gone up past the Appellate Court and this decision
has been handled in favor of the people in every one of
the cities and now these 13 cities are combining to take
it to the Supreme Court to make sure, if possible, that
they can continue to collect taxes illegally from their
citizens. That just about ends the makeup of that.
It is my own personal opinion that the Community Redevelop-
ment Agency laws is the biggest pyramid scheme of the cent-
ury. And there is one more thing I want to say on walnut
Grove Avenue this law was set up to eliminate old areas
and bring them up to standard. All of these development
projects on Walnut Grove Avenue were put there on farmland
that was perfectly level and clear and clean. There wasn't
a thing on there, not even a five-year-old shingle laying
on it. It was perfectly clean land.
Now, how in the heaven's name can you call that
redevelopment?
(Applause.)
MR. WILSON: I think that there ought to be a thorough
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investigation. We have no way of knowing what kind of
sweetheart deals have been made on this property to the
leaseholders or anything else.
That's all I have to say. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Wilson.
First of all, let me explain something. Re-
spectfully this Commission listened to Mr. Wilson just out
of respect.
First of all, this Commission has nothing to
do with redevelopment, nothing to do with the city politics
other than what is before it on this one subject. That
is all we want to hear about tonight.
If there is something else, you people take
care of it at the polls, at the Council, other places.
The Planning Commission is here primarily and justly and
only to hear matters before the Planning Commission. And
that's all we're going to hear tonight.
As I say, respectfully we listened to Mr. Wilson
and let him talk, and he was very articulate in what he
had to say. But we can't sit here and listen to everything
that has happened in the city from the time of incorpora-
tion. The only thing we want to hear is anything that is
new to come before this Commission.
Now, if anybody else wishes to speak about some-
thing on the matter at hand, please come forward.
MR. KEHNE: My name is Robert Kehne and I live at
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4405 Rosemead Boulevard in Rosemead.
I spoke to you last week, and since then II
would like to say that I've spoken to the Governor's office;
that I've spoken to our County Supervisor, Pete Schabarum's
office. Both of them expressed to me that they're very
misinformed. They don't get a whole lot of information
from the City, and that is the honest to God's truth.
Both of them feel in their opinion that an
Environmental Impact Report is in the best interests of
all parties, and so do I. And I would like to say that
in all respect to you men, that you are here no matter
whether you say you are involved in politics or not to rep-
resent the interests of the citizens of the City of Rose-
mead. And this power plant and all these 200 people that
were here last week, and the people that are here this week
who have'expressed opposition, and one man who has expressed)
his interest in having it you are not showing any respect
to us. we say we don't want it, but yet it's a clear opin-
ion of everyone here that you have already made up your
mind that you are going to take it.
If you approve it, that's fine; it still has
to go to the City Council and we'll fight there. If we
lose there, then I will guarantee we'll have a recall elec-
tion and I'll guarantee you that we'll fight tooth and nail
to see that you are fired.
MRS. RAUCH: My name is Mrs. Russell Rauch and I just)
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want to go on record as being opposed to the cogeneration
facility.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN: Commission Schymos.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: Last week we sat here for three
and a half hours and watched a parade, the people come up
here and say "we're against the cogeneration plant."
I think this Commission pretty well knows what
the attitude of the people is. I don't want to waste
another evening here listening to the same thing. In fact,
Mr. Chairman, I will not listen to it.
MS. HOLTZ: Mr. Chairman wait a minute.
Mr. Chairman, may I have a point of order?
THE CHAIRMAN: Point of order for the young lady.
MS. HOLTZ: My name is Estelle Holtz and I live at
8247 Bleeker Street in South San Gabriel.
Number one, as a point of order we are here
for a public hearing. That by meaning means the people
must be heard in one way or another. Now, we out of respect
for this body and for older people have to go to work.
We came up one at a time toward the end, just gave our name,
address and said no to the power plant.
I know what Mr. Schymos is saying. He's saving
we're parading up here saying no to the power plant. If
you want to do it another way, why don't you take a hand
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vote on how many are for the power plant and how many are
against the power plant. Otherwise you are denying us our
right to be heard. There are people here, Mr. Schymos,
that haven't been heard before and they have a right to
be heard.
Now, another thing: You know, you require a
lot of our bodies. All they have are a few very high bodies
here. Now our body is not worth less than their body, so
we have to have more bodies. So our body must be heard
at a public hearing.
Now, you can have it any way you want it. I
dare you to ask how many are for that power plant. But
you are going to have to Mr. Lowrey, I 'know you are a
fair man and you know we're here for the purpose of being
heard in one way or another. You must hear us, okay?
THE CHAIRMAN: We want to hear you; we want to hear
you.
(Applause.)
MR. ABELSON: My name is LeRoy Abelson and I am here
representing Mark Schwartz. I am an attorney at law with
the law firm of O'Neill & Huxtable.
I have some comments that I would like to make
regarding the plant, but first of all I want to express
myself on this point that has been raised. Now, these
people who have come, they have a right under the due pro-
cess of law of this United States to be heard in one way
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or another. If the Commission is not allowing these people
to be heard, that right has been violated. Now, possibly
in order to alleviate a long, long meeting tonight,.we could
pass a sheet of paper around that people who don't want
to give a specific presentation of some kind, if they're
just opposed to the plant, and that might save a great deal
of time and might assist you and it might assist us in at
least getting these people on the record.
As you know, the record is being taken and just
because they're sitting in the audience doesn't mean that
they're going to go on the record. In fact, if they just
sit in the audience and don't come up to speak, it will
never reach the record, and they feel they have a right
to be on the record and they have that right. So I think
unless you are willing to let each and every person who
wants to speak come up here and speak without intimidating
them, then I think what needs to be done is to pass out
a piece of paper. In fact, I have such a declaration pre-
pared basically stating that "I am against the plant, and
I have heard what has been said and I'm against it for the
reasons that have been said."
If the people that just don't have anything
to say other than that, I think it may be that they should
be allowed to at least get themselves on the record.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Abelson, I wholeheartedly agree
with what you are saying. If the audience, the proponents,
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the opponents are agreeable to that, that would be wonder-
ful. This Commission wants to hear anything new that comes
up. If somebody wants to say something we stayed here
until 1:00 o'clock last Monday night. We'll stay here until
1:00 o'clock this Monday night. We don't want anybody to
walk away. that has new testimony, that wants to be heard,
and we will hear them. I think your suggestion about pass-
ing the piece of paper would be wonderful; that would be
fine. But again, if there is somebody that wants to bring
up something new before this body, bring it up. We want
to hear it. We want to hear everything we can possibly
hear before we give judgment.
MR. ABELSON: I have two more housekeeping items I
would like to bring up.
Number one, the last session when we were here
we brought up the request that these people be notified
by the Commission rather than having to be notified by Mark
Schwartz. I believe, if my ears didn't deceive me, that
the Commission requested that the staff do so, but only
if we could get together our mailing list and give it to
him by 10:00 o'clock.
Well, the mailing list was given to the staff
Monday night, last Monday night, at the conclusion of this
hearing. I am informed and I might be corrected if I'm
wrong on this, Mr. Carmona that in fact the 807 people
on the mailing list did not receive notice. Some portion
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of them did,
but some of
them did
not. We did not know
that some of
the people on
the list
had been not included.
We were not able to send the notices out ourselves. We
relied on the fact that the staff was going to be sending
notice to everyone. As a result, we didn't learn until
Friday afternoon and we attempted in a last-ditch effort
to get people out, and you can see there are not as many
people as there were last time. We tried to get people
out by hand-delivering notices on Saturday afternoon. I
want to, for the record, protest the fact and correct
me if I'm wrong, Mr. Carmona that the entire mailing
listwas not sent notice of.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Abelson, let Mr. Dickey, the Assis-
tant City Manager, respond.
MR. DICKEY: Mr. Abelson and members of the audience,
I think it may be a matter of communication. The request
that we interpreted on staff's level was to notify those
people that in fact had spoken. And there were people here
in the audience who did know that the meeting was in fact
continued. We did notify these people that did take the
time to present themselves to this Commission and give tes=
timony. So they were in fact notified.
In fact, as I recall, there was a member from
the audience in fact that had said use the list that we
have, and we did use the list that was available to us via
the tape.
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LAIR. ABELSON: 'The request was to use the list that
Mark Schwartz had. He provided a list that contained 807
names. And just because notice was given to the people
who spoke, all the more reason the people that didn't speak
would be the ones that want to come and present their case
this time. It was too long for everybody to speak, and
at least the people who didn't get a chance to last time
should be given the chance.
I regret that there was 'a miscommunication.
MR. DICKEY: There has been a lot of media exposure
on this particular matter, too. I think everybody is cog-
nizant of that. We did in fact interpret that we would
use the list at the direction of the Chairman, which was
basically off the information we had on the tape.
MR. ABELSON: The final housekeeping matter I want
to make, and THE CHAIRMAN: Please come to order. Give the gentle-
man a chance to speak.
MR. ABELSON: I do have some comments to make on the
project itself. As you know, one of the purposes for con-
tinuing the matter was for us to get together and try to
come to an agreement about moving the plant.
Meetings were held, and I would like Mr. Benzian
to address that, but at this point I don't know what to
address. Am I addressing a project that is 20 feet from
my client's property line? Or am I addressing a project
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that is up against the Cal Fed building? And so I would
ask the Commission to at least have Mr. Benzian or some
representative of Cal Fed tell us what the project is that
they're going to be proposing at this time so that I would
have at least some opportunity to respond. I could keep
my comments more directly on point if they were to do that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Abelson.
MR. ABELSON: I do have other comments, but I would
request that Cal Fed at least present what their proposal
is before I have to speak.
(Applause.)
MR. KRESS: Mr. Chairman, I believe Mr. Abelson's
point is well taken. There are a number of people who wish
to address some specifics on this project. The Commission
was told that there would be some meetings taking place
this week, and I think we should have a report from the
applicant as to what is happening, what they're now propos-
ing so that those opposed can address it.
We have mentioned that the applicant, because
they have the burden of proof, they have the opportunity
to get the last word in. You have to realize tnat, but
we nave got a long, long time ahead of us tonight. Every-
body is going to have the opportunity to say whatever they
want, as long as it is on point. But. I think we should
near from Cal Fed at this time as to exactly what they are
proposing.
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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Berizian, would you like to come
at this time.
MR. BENZIAN: Mr. Chairman, members of the
Commission
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: A point of order. This
is not a court fight. We are the people to be heard.
Now, I don't like the idea of one lawyer fight-
ing another lawyer. They've got a particular thing of con-
cern, but we are fighting against the power plant. We don't
want to have this lawyer fight.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please, the lawyers aren't fighting.
They're trying to explain to the public, the Commission,
the facts of this case. That's all. They're not
THE VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Mr. Abelson cut in three
or four people in line. He cut in. Now he wants to cut
in. I don't think that is fair to the people.
THE CHAIRMAN: It is fair. What we're trying to do
is get all the input we can.
Mr. Benzian, you have the floor. Would you
please come *orward, please.
MR. BENZIAN: My name is Peter Benzian. I am an
attorney for California Federal Savings and Loan Associa-
tion, the applicant for this matter.
Members of the Commission, ladies and gentlemen,
after last Monday night's hearing, as i indicated we would
do, Cal Fed has met with Mr. Schwartz and his representa-
tives. Unfortunately I was unduly optimistic about our
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ability to meet with other residents in the area to discuss
the modified proposal for the location of the cogeneration
facility that I discussed with the Commission and the aud-
ience last week. We tried very hard with Mr. Schwartz.
We had a number of meetings. I think both sides were can-
did, approached the matter of these discussions in good
faith, in a good faith attempt to work out our differences
with respect to the cogeneration facility; and even beyond
that, to address other matters that were raised in the liti-
gation that Mr. Schwartz has initiated against both the
City and Cal Fed. We were not successful, unfortunately,
but we were not successful I believe simply because of the
lack of time and the ability to conclude those discussions.
That is disappointing to me. I'm sure it's probably dis-
appointing to the Commission and perhaps to members of the
audience. But in light of the progress that was achieved,
Cal Fed has decided to seek a modification of its design
review application for the cogeneration facility. And not-
withstanding the absence of an agreement with Mr. Schwartz
and/or other residents in the community who at least, to
this moment, have expressed their opposition to Cal Fed's
design review application, Cal Fed is nevertheless request-
ing modification of its application to propose a location
I
of the cogeneration facility in the area outlined on the
map that I showed the Commission and the audience last week.
Perhaps if I could prevail on Mr. Carmona tc
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put that map on the easel so that we can all get another
look at it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Benzian, would you like to step
over and use that hand microphone. Would it help you?
MR. BENZIAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As the members of the Commission and the audi-
ence will recall, the proposed relocation of the cogenera-
tion facility was from a position here in the northwest
corner of the California Federal site to a location approx-
imately 185 feet easterly df that location to abutFhase I
of the main office center complex. Cal Fed has mixed emo-
tions in submitting this proposed modification because it
has some very substantial adverse economic effects on the
project as a whole. Given the proposal that Cal Fed sub-
mitted last March, which was approved for both Phase I and
Phase II of its office center complex, this proposed loca-
tion would in effect preclude Cal Fed from developing
approximately 50,000 square feet of its proposed Phase II
office facility. That is a very substantial reduction,
ouviously, in the amount of proposed office space in the
facility, and it's going to and will add serious financial
consequences for Cal Fed. But we are proposing this loca-
tion to even further allay concerns that memoers of the
community may have about the environmental effects of the
cogeneration facility.
There is one postscript to this proposal, fr.
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Chairman, and members of the Commission, and to you, ladies
and gentlemen. And it's that given the serious financial
sacrifice that Cal Fed must make in order to propose this
relocation of the facility, we are making this proposal
on the condition that the Planning Commission approve a
negative declaration with respect to the project.
Now, we
are
not using
that
as a cudgel.
A VOICE FROM
THE
AUDIENCE:
We
just don't want it
in the city. That's all.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please refrain from the outbursts.
MR. BENZIAN: we're not using this as a cudgel to
try to prompt the Commission to do something that would
otherwise be required. We remain convinced that the cogen-
eration facility in its own location as established by the
staff report and all of the underlying data that support
that staff report would not have a significant effect on
the environment which is the standard, the potential for
a significant effect on the environment which is the stan-
dard for a determination of whether an EIR or negative dec-
laration should be prepared. We think that staff recommen-
dation is even more clear when this facility is relocated
to the proposed location, given the even further reduction
of potential noise effects on members of the residential
community living in 'his area and the esthetic effect of
a location of the building adjacent to the residential com-
munity. As I say, we're not trying to impose this negative
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declaration condition as a way to threaten or cajole the
Commission into accepting the negative declaration. We
are compelled to do this by virtue of the significant eco-
nomic detriment that Cal Fed is incurring by proposing this
modified location. If this Commission were to require the
preparation of an Environmental Impact Report, that would
add substantial additional time to the processing of our
application, and that substantial additional time would
impose further very severe financial consequences on Cal-
ifornia Federal. It is for that reason that we are pro-
viding a conditional proposal.
Now, there is one further modification to our
request for design review approval that I would like to
mention to the Commission, and that is because of the dis-
cussion last week, both by members of the audience and by
some of the members of the Commission, we are also proposing
a further condition with respect to the design review ap-
proval which we are seeking from the Commission. And that
would be a condition concerning proposed monitoring of the
emissions that would be generated by the cogeneration facil-
ity. I would like to submit for the record to the Director
of Planning and also to each member of the Commission a
copy of the proposed condition.
This condition would require California Federal
to contract with Emissions Control Systems, Inc., the com-
pany located in Vallejo, California, that is supplying the
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catalytic converters for the proposed cogeneration facility
and which would require Cal Fed to enter into a contract
with Emissions Control Systems, Inc., or a comparable company
to provide quarterly monitoring of the emissions from the
cogeneration facility to ensure that those emissions are
at or below the proposed emissions that are reflected both
in the staff report and in Cal Fed's application to the
South Coast Air Quality Management District.
I would also like to submit to the Commission
and to the staff for inclusion in the record of these pro-
ceedings an additional report from the acoustical consult-
ing firm of Purcell, Noppe 6 Associates. Again, I have
a copy for the Director's file ana a copy for each Commis-
sioner. This letter from Jack Purcell of Purcell, Noppe
and Associates addresses some of the noise issues that were
raised at the hearing last week and provides a professional
opinion to the effect that the proposed relocation of 'the
facility would, given the noise attenuation features to
be incorporated in the project, would eliminate the sound
levels at the westerly property line of California Federal's
property to 40 dBA or less, again a substantial reauczion
by approximately 4 to 5 dBA, the noise levels that were
estimated, based on the facility's old location.
Finally, I would like to submit for the record
a one-page document prepared by a' representative of the
Albert C. Martin 6 Associates planning, architecture and
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engineering firm, which attempts to address the issue that
I think was most specifically raised by Commissioner Ritchie
and then also by members of the audience, but which attempts
to project the net reduction in air emissions that would
result from the construction and operation of this cogenera-
tion facility, contrasted with the emissions that would
be produced by Southern California Edison if Southern Cal-
ifornia Edison were required to generate the electricity
and the power source for air conditioning and heating that
would be required by the California Federal office complex.
Again, I have a copy for the Director's file as well as
a copy for each Commissioner.
This data establishes that the cogeneration
facility results in approximately a 100% net reduction in
the amount of some of the emissions that would be produced
by the cogeneration facility. And the document, so that
the Commissioners understand it, is based on only one pro-
posed engine generator. That is, each of our four proposed
engine generators in the facility generates 600 kilowatts
of power, and so the comparisons are provided with respect
to only one engine generator. To fully compute the proposed
net reductions if it is assumed that all four engine gen-
erators are operating, one would have to do the arithmetic
to convert. those figures so as to apply to four engine gen-
erators, although I hasten to add, as I explained last week,
that it is estimated that only two engine generators will
operate on the average in Cal Fed's proposed cogeneration
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facility.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: We already heard that.
MR. BENZIAN: Now, I would like, if I may, Mr. Chair-
man and members of the Commission, to make several addi-
tional points. I'm not intending to repeat what I said
last week, but•I would like to address a couple of points.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please, ladies and gentlemen, give
the speaker a chance.
MR. BENZIAN: As I think the Chairman has already
pointed out, the issue before us tonight is not whether
the cogeneration facility of the sort that Cal Fed is pro-
posing is a permitted use within the C-3 Zone on this par-
ticular piece of property. We submit that that issue is
not before the Commission.
The existing zoning, C-3, for this property
permits a cogeneration facility of the sort that Cal Fed
is proposing and indeed the Superior Court of Los Angeles
County has confirmed that belief in ruling that the cogener-
ation facility being proposed is a permitted use within
the C-3 Zone. We therefore submit that whether or not a
cogeneration facility should be permitted within tnis prop-
erty is not an issue before the commission. Rather, the
issue before the Commission is the design criteria with
respect to that facility. And we believe that the proposed
relocation of the facility supports even more a conclusion
that no significant environmental effects are raised by
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the cogeneration facility for the reasons so aptly, exhaus-
t
tibly described in Il4r. Carmona's staff report and in his
environmental assessment form.
I would like to leave with the Commission,
finally although I would like to reserve the opportunity
to respond briefly to any comments that 'are raised after
I sit down but I would like to refer' to the Commission
briefly to legislation recently adopted by the California
State Legislature and signed into law by Governor Brown.
That legislation, which will become effective on
January 1, 1982, requires the South Coast Air Quality Man-
agement District, when considering permits to construct
cogeneration facilities, to take into account in determining
whether the standards of the Calvo bill that we discussed
last week are met, the net reductions in air emissions that
would be created by the cogeneration facility as contrasted
to the same amount of power generated by conventional util-
ity. The effect of that legislation will be-- anti it is not
applicable to Cal Fed at this point because our permit to,
construct and to operate the facility has already been filed
with South Coast Air Quality Management District and pre-
sumably will be issued prior to the effective date of this
legislation.
But the effect of that legislation will be or would
have been on Cal Fed to have permitted this facility under
the standards of the Calvo bill, under the standards of
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Air Quality Management District concluding that it was a
ministerial project not subject to CEQA and with no neces-
sity for either a negative declaration or an EIR; would
have permitted a facility of the sort Cal Fed is proposing
without even the very extensive air emission control equip-.
Inent that we are providing, given the net reductions that
would result in this facility on an air basin-wide level.
Now, let me return again to the legislative
intent expressed in that legislation.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: That's enough.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please, ladies and gentlemen, give
some respect to the speaker as you would have respect if
you were speaking. Please come to order.
MR. BENZIAN: I'm quoting now from AB 1862 that was
recently enacted by the Legislature and signed by Governors,
Brown:
"The Legislature finds and declares that the
use of cogeneration technology can substantially in-
crease the efficiency of energy use in California
and can also result in environmental and economic
benefits to the people of the state; that the expanded
use of cogeneration technology is specifically encour-
aged as a matter of natural energy policy through
/ the tax and regulatory incentives providea in the
National Energy Act and tnrough state legislation
which encourages the expeditious approval of cogener-
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ation projects. And the construction and operation
of cogeneration facilities will result in an incre-
mental air quality emissions benefit to the extent
they reduce demand on existing utility combustion
generation facilities in the same air basin and that
such benefit should be recognized in determining
requirements for new cogeneration projects."
I submit, members of the Commission, that that
declaration of legislative policy is particularly relevant
and applicable to Cal Fed's proposed facility and I would
urge the Commission to approve the modified proposal sub-
mitted by Cal Fed and to adopt a negative declaration with
respect to that application.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Out of the residential
area. Put it somewhere else.
ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Put it in your own
city.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please come to order.
Mr. Abelson, you asked for Mr. Benzian to pre-
sent his case. Would you like to speak now and keep in
mind that
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: You only have two minutes.
(Laughter.)
MR. ABELSON: I would just as soon, Commissioner,
let the people speak first if they want to speak.
THE CHAIRMAA: That's fine.
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I want to bring one thing to your mind. Again,
the burden of proof is on the proponents. They will have
the final rebuttal tonight. So anybody that wishes to speak
about anything new as I said before, we heard Mr. Wilson.
We heard about redevelopment. It does not pertain to this
Commission.
The only thing we want to hear tonight is some-
thing pertaining to this cogeneration.
Ma'am?
NIS. ROBLES: My name is Gayle Robles. I live at
2445 Muscatel, City of Rosemead.
THE CHAIRMAN: Would you spell your last name, please,
for the court reporter.
MS. ROBLES: R-o-b-l-e-s.
I am here because most things are impossible
to change once they do exist, but it is possible to prevent
things that don't exist. I live one block from Edison Com-
pany and a couple of blocks from the Cal Fed site. Some
of the problems that exist now from these places are heavy
increase in traffic flow, usually going too fast in a com-
pletely residential area. Worrying about that is a little
selfish if you have children you care about, not to mention
the added car emissions anti the terrible parking along
Klingerman. These problems do exist and there is little
we can do to change them.
Now they're talking about putting a large power
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plant in the area, almost totally surrounded by residential
housing, including two well-populated schools, Rice and
Fern. Why should we, the residents of this area, have to
breathe polluted air so that Cal Fed can save money at the
expense of our health. They say it will be minimal pollu-
tion. I say once the precedent is set, who keeps it from
becoming maximum pollution? We are here today to prevent
that precedent from being set, from other companies coming
in and putting in more power plants. Who is to stop them?
Cal Fed and its employees won't have to breathe
the air from the four smokestacks. They work in a control-
led environment all day and then go home. Executives dic-
tating won't even be around the area day after day. Why
is it that one or two high-powered attorneys are easily
heard above the shouts of hundreds? We want you to know,
a deaf ear will be remembered at election time. Four smoke-
stacks releasing tons of pollution will be an easy reminder.
As you know, I'm not new to fighting Rosemead.
I was in an eminent domain fight. I brought in some media
and I think that is what has to be done. Lie do not want
that power plant here or anywhere around us.
Once you let one in, there is no way of stop-
ping the rest. Thank you.
MS. K14APP: my name is Holly Knapp, K-n-a-p-o, 8367
East Whitmore Street.
Gentlemen, last week I expressed my anger to-
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wards you and the City Council and in particular your City
staff concerning this gross mistake on your part. Since
then I have heard from a pretty reliable source that Cali-
fornia Federal wrote a letter to the City asking that they
be allowed to begin building before the necessary permits
were cleared by your Commission and that Mr. Carmona gave
them the okay.
I would like to know for the record, is this
true? And Mr. Carmona, did you give them this permission
on your own, or did you get the permission from your City
Manager, Frank Tripepi, to do this? I think the people
have a right to know.
MR. CARMONA: Do you want me to speak?
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carmona, if you wish to respond-
you don't have to. But if you wish to
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Why not?
MR. CARMONA: Because of the importance of this and
the question appears
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: That's true.
MR. CARMONA: The question appears to be a very
THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, please come to
order now.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Ladies and gentlemen, I think we
are going to conduct a good meeting here with no problems,
but we can't, do it without mutual respect on both sides.
Now, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I'm askinc you
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to conduct yourselves in a proper order, please. You will
all get your say.
Let's do it in a proper way.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carmona?
MR. CARMONA: It is a fair question; it deserves a
fair answer.
As far as the hesitation
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Can't hear you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carmona, please use the hand mike.
MR. CARMONA: Excuse me. I apologize.
It is a fair question and deserves a fair an-
swer. If I seem to be hesitant, it is an important question
and there is a lot more involved than just what I'm about
to say.
Yes, a permit was issued; yes, I did authorize
the issuance of the permit. Nothing was out of the ordinary
at the time. It is our provision within the Building Code
to allow a project to be issued a permit for foundation
only while a plan is going through a plan check. And that
is how the permit was issued.
MS. KNAPP: Is that how the power plant got started?
MR. CARMONA: Not only the power plant, ma'am, but
also the California Federal project. Permits are allowed
to be issued under the Uniform Building Code.
There was nothing out of the ordinary at the
time other than how shall I say it? Concerns expressea
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by Mr. Schwartz' litigation. We weren't even involved in
litigation, as I recall. We're talking about last June.
NIS. KNAPP: My question is that you acted on your
own?
MR. CARMCNA: No.
MS. KNAPP:. Without any other City staff?
MR. CARMONA: I discussed it with City staff. I don't
feel that it is pertinent whether I discussed it with people
beneath me or above me.
Yes, it was discussed at staff level.
MS. KNAPP: I have a question for you, Chairman
Lowrey. Were the Commissioners aware of this?
THE CHAIRMAN: Miss Knapp, we get the review; we get
our minutes and the agenda for the following week. We get
it the week prior. That's our first knowledge of it, and
we go out and inspect the premises and see what was de-
signed and that is it.
NIS. KNAPP: I'm trying to give you a chance to get
off the stick.
THE CHAIRMAN: I don't have to get off the stick.
COMMISSIONER SCHYNOS: Mr. Chairman, I heard Mrs..
Knapp say something about a permit issued this week. Was
that
145. KNAPP: That wasn't my question. I didn't say
this week.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: what was your question? You
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MS. KNAPP: My question was if the City did not re-
ceive a letter from California Federal asking for permis-
sion to begin building without the clearance of your Com-
mission's permission.
MR. CARMONA: No, no.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: You said this week.
MS. KNAPP: No, I did not, sir.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: WaKe up.
ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Check the record.
MS. KNAPP: Mr.. Carmona answered for you; back in
June.
MR. CARMONA: Oh, no.
Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. That deserves a re-
sponse. This Commission had reviewed this project and ap-
proved its review back on March 2 of this year. That is
not the subject of this hearing, but this Commission did
review the project and approved the project.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Anything about the power
plant is the subject of this hearing.
THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am?
INS. GANISOA: I'm Carol Gamboa, G-a-m, as in Mary,
B as in boy, o-a.
Mr. Wilson asked me to provide the Commission
with a copy of the letter that ne circulated to the busi-
nessmen.
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, your address, too, please.
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MS. GAMBOA: 1826 Rosebrook Lane, Rosemead.
Obviously I oppose the power plant. I don't
have any specific technical information to contribute on
that. The evaluation of technical materials were difficult
for us laymen and part of what we're able to do with tech-
nical information is we also have to consider the credi-
bility and the good faith of the people who are offering
us technical material that we have no way to check.
I stayed last week till this meeting broke up.
It was very clear that the Commission would send the notices
to Mr. Schwartz' mailing list, that the Commission agreed
to do it, and then did not do it. And not only did not
do it, but did not advise Mr. Schwartz that it was not being
done, hampered the capacity of the community to know what
was going on here.
I do not like I want to let the Commission
know that I really resent that the Commission interfered
with Mr. Schwartz being able to notify the community ofd
this meeting tonight. Fair and reasonable governmental
process is one of the things that I am interested in, and
I think a fair and reasonable decision can be made about
the power plant if we have a fair and reasonable govern-
mental process. And I want to express my outrage that those
notices were not sent as agreed.
(Applause.)
MR. ROScLUND: My name is Nels Roselund. I live at
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8453 Yarrow Street in South San Gabriel. I am a structural
engineer THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Roselund, would you
please spell it for the reporter, please.
MR. HOSELUND: N-e-1-s R-o-s-e-l-u-n-d.
I am a structural engineer. I'm not an expert
in the disciplines of noise or esthetics or pollution that
are the main matters of concern here. I feel I am techni-
cally knowledgeable in my own field and also able to under-
stand other technical fields if I can see enough data.
I'm open-minded by nature and by training.
I don't make up my mind on prejudice. I tend to withhold
judgment until the data warrants a decision. I'm not blind
against the power plant. I have put considerable amount
of time into studying the evaluation of the negative dec-
laration. I have paid attention to what has been said and
I have asked questions.
Personally, I don't feel that we know enough
to be able to say that this project is going to have no
impact on the environment, no significant impact on the
environment. We have been presented with a lot of data,
some very subjective, some conflicting; and there are some
areas in which no data has been presented.
In my opinion, again, based on the data I've
seen and I've tried to make that as complete as I
could I don't think you could possibly say that there
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is going to be no significant impact on the environment
from this plant. This thing is experimental. There is
no similar facility of this scale that we can compare it
with. We have got similar facilities and we've got other
types of facilities of this scale, but we put them together
and put them near residential neighborhoods and we don't
have any way of knowing what the impact is going to be.
We have got a lot of expert opinion. We've got some con-
flicting opinion, but it seems to me that we need a more
thorough evaluation with objectively-sought facts.
The expert, Mr. Hoppe, disagrees with the fig-
ures that were in Ultra Systems' report in regard to the
sound levels. Expert Mr. Gordon disagrees with expert
Mr. Noppe on vibrations. None of the experts have addressed
the matter of sound on the hill, from sound traveling from
the top of the roof by direct line of sight to the homes
on the hill. Those homes are higher than the top of the
power plant.
I've included that question in my letter to
the Planning Department in response to the first notice
of last week's meeting. I included that question last weex
when I spoke to you. I asked Mr. Hoppe, I.asked P.Ir. Ben-
zian. I've asked Mr. Carmona. We have not gotten any
response to that question.
I am no expert in this thing, but if there)
is a question that we can't get an answer to, and that will)
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not be addressed, it is apparent that we need further inves-
tigation in which objective questions are asked, and we
look for real answers.
With the amount of incomplete conflicting and
subjective data, I can't see that an objective determination
that no significant effect on the environment will result.
I can't see that that kind of decision is possible. We
need the benefit of a careful objective analysis.
Last week Mr. Benzian encouraged you, looked
with disdain on the people who said only "we don't want
the power plant." What a clever and glib kind of phrase.
He curdles people's expressions of concern into blind prej-
udice because they did not fight back with figures as he
is capable of doing.
we the people have been treated with that kind
of scorn all along, and it's unfair. First we were ignored.
It took the sound of pile driving from the northwest corner
of that site to alert us to what was going on. When we
couldn't be ignored, we were mislead, while Mr. Schwartz
fougnt over the same matter.
I mentioned those 10 innocent well-tuned cars
last week and what those figures can be turned into, a free-
way going through our neighborhood as far as emissions were
concerned. We were told that our property values were being
enhanced by this power plant. We were told that a 45-foot
high power plant adjacent to a residential area is in keep-
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ing with the residential land use. We were told that Cal
Fed has always had our interests in mind. We were told
that in any case this is better than what any other devel-
oper would do on that site.
When misleading us was not enough, we were
appeased. They're going to go plant 18-foot high trees
next to that 45-foot building. They're going to put a
wrought iron gate at the end,of my street. There are going
to be nice textured concrete on the end of that building
that will have vines growing on it.
Finally, something substantial was done. Open-
ings were moved around to the far side of the building.
If they needed to be moved, they should have moved them
in the first place. Vibration controls were improved.
If they needed to be controlled, they should have been part
of the original project.
Then the building was proposed to be moved.
If that needed to be done, that should have been done in
the first place. And then Mr. Benzian, a noncudgel gentle-
man, to me that shows that the new kid in the neighborhood
is a bully.
In addition, it looks like it's possible that
we'll not even have the protection of an objectively-con-
sidered Environmental Impact Report. With treatment like
that, it's pretty clear that the people are being dumped
on and manipulated, and you can't blame us for saying we
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don't °.Jant it. And it's unfair to say that the people are
blindly prejudiced for just saying we don't want it after
being treated like that.
If the power plant is as innocent and innocuous
as Cal Fed claims it to be, let an Environmental Impact
Report prove it. I know that Cal Fed has a time problem.
Mr. Benzian mentioned that last week. If they knew they
had a time problem, they should have started that when they
could have and not wait for a court order.
Cal Fed's president, Mr. Dockson, is an intel-
ligent, enthusiastic man. He has a staff of intelligent,
capable people. They're paid to be .competent in every
necessary field. Cal Fed knows how things work. They know
the laws and the processes of government and construction
and finance.
They took a gamble in this matter, and now
they're in a bind. I also think they're big boys and they
can live with a lost gamble now and then. They're big
enough to figure out how to handle their time problem. We
have a time problem, too, gentlemen. If this thing turns
out to be the nuisance that we fear, we're going to be
saddled with that nuisance in our back yard for as long
as we live there, and for some of us that is a real time
problem.
Personally, my principal authority is the Bible.
Since that is the case, I want to cite an applicable portion
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of it to you. In Leviticus 15:18, God tells us that he
wants us to love our neighbors as a person like ourselves.
He is not telling us he wants warm fuzzy thoughts towards
one another. The love he wants from us gets played out
in practical matters in daily life through actions made
in respect and justice.
Nowadays, we have a little bit of trouble with
justice and we leave it to the judges. We feel that it's
up to them to decide what is just. But a good substitute
for justice in the ordinary affairs of people is fairness.
You and I, we can all understand that.
I am asking you to treat our neighborhood fairly
and require an Environmental Impact Report. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Mr. Roselund mentioned that
there was no data on some of the things. Would you please
give the Commission that data you think is missing.
MR. ROSELUND: I'll tell you what I think is
missing. I don't know the specifications, but I'll tell
you what I think needs to be answered.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: You made mention of it. So
what I figured was, you being a structural engineer, you
may know what data was missing.
MR. ROSELUNU: It's this: There is equipment and
stacks on the roof of the building. Sound gets emitted
by this equipment and stacks.
The evaluation has stated that the parapet
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around the top of the building is going to block the sound
from that equipment and stacks so that it won't be heard
in the neighborhood. However, the top of the building is
not as high as the ground on which some of the buildings
on which some of the homes are built to the southwest of
the plant. The doors and windows of those homes are even
higher. There will be a direct line of sight from those
homes to the top of the building. The parapet around the
building then is not going to be blocking the sound from
the equipment for those homes. The sound then will be able
to travel by direct line of sight from the source of the
noise to the people on the hill.
A measurement of the sound at ground level,
at the property line, does not give an indication of the
level of sound at the property line, at the point high
enough where the sound is traveling directly from the build-
ing to people who can hear it.
That is the data that I feel has not been ad-
dressed.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. ASPEITIA: My name is Mark Aspeitia,
A-s-p-e-i-t-i-a. I live at 6441 Sarah Street in South San
Gabriel.
When I first heard about this project, tney
informed me that there was one facility on Atlantic Street
in the City o: r+,onuerey Park, and so I went over there ana
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I took a look at it. There is you can see the plume
of smoke going up. You can't hear it too well, but you
can see it, you know, the what would you call it? The
pollution going into the air.
In this day and age when we're so concerned
about pollution in our air and water and everything else,
I just can't see why you're putting a plant that is going
to supply pollution to the area. We have enough on the
freeway already. And as far as noise goes, I do live on
the hill and I can hear when they're calling the people
down at the golf course, when they're calling them to the
tee to tee off. I can hear the loudspeaker up on the hill.
So that noise pollution will affect me, too.
And so I just want to go on record that I'm
opposed to this whole thing really.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
MR. WEINER: My name is Milton Weiner and I live at
3A12 East Sarah Street in South San Gabriel.
THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, would you spell your last name,
please.
MR. WEINER: W-e-i-n-e-r.
Last Monday a man said that within one year
he was going to retire and that he wantea peace. And that
tells me that these people here are legitimate authoritative
figures. They're solid citizens, capable of making deci-
sions and they don't want to put up with some nonsense any-
more.
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Now, I looked at this plan today where you want
to move the cogeneration facility, and I see on the blue-
prints that that will cause even if you do make a compro-
mise and that plant is moved, it will cause additional pile
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Now, a lot of the houses on the hill do not
have property compaction and this pile driving sets up
vibrations and reverberating stress onto these homes. My
room has a crack eight feet long, and if Albert C. Martin
and structural engineers know that a project of this magni-
tude will cause that in a residential neighbornood, the
citizens of this community are entitled to compensation
for the damages to their home.
They also proposed a heliport. Now, I'm agi-
tated because I have been in combat and I don't like watch-
ing helicopters over the neighborhood. All right, that
has nothing to do with it. You can strike it from the
record. Forget about the heliport.
But also it is a question that the people
I think they want straight answers, and it seems that fear
and money is the only thing that Cal Fed seems to respond
to. Now, when there was a scandal with the Garfield Bank,
$6 million was withdrawn. And these financial institutions
invaded people's privacy and they have to remember that
our government, our judicial processes, majority rules and
I. have been taught this all my life: That the people, they
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are the ones that have to be our needs have to be catered
to. And you have to consider the needs of the citizens.
They nave to take that into consideration. They want
straight answers. They don't want someone when they go
to the bank they don't want someone telling them that
their money is going to be recorded on Tuesday because they
want to cheat them out of a couple of pennies necessary
for interest.
This is what the people are angry about. They
want solid answers. They don't want these tricks. There
are too- many tricks going on, and I think they're just
tired of putting up with that. And this seems to be the
problem that bothers me.
And people are always talking about the future.
There are many homes here' that have been damaged. Lots
of them have. Homes have been damaged and the people are
entitled to compensation for the damages that have already
been done. And it isn't necessarily Cal Fed. It's also
Albert C. (Martin & Associates and Purcell & Noppe. And
this is a point that hasn't been brought up, and I just
wanted to bring that up.
Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, if I may, again please, if
you keep your remarks to the subject at hand. we're talking
about Cal Federal's cogeneration plant.
To bring up things about financial institutions
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and Garfield Bank, it has no bearing on this hearing at
all. So if you please keep your remarks to things that
are pertinent and important to this hearing and give the
benefit of everybody to hear it.
Go ahead, sir.
MR. ENRICO: My name is Tom Enrico, E-n-r-i-c-o. I
live at 8456 East Yarrow in South San Gabriel.
One of the points that Cal Fed keeps bringing
up is that they're not going to be adding to the pollution.
Well, they passed around in the neighborhood a pamphlet
that I found on my step in a neatly-packaged plastic bag.
And upon reading it, you find out that they state that this
plant will not put out any more emissions than 10 well-tuned
cars.
Well, last week on the news that was here cov-
ering it that night, their own representative stated all
of a sudden that these 10 well-tuned cars had suddenly
become just 12 cars.
Now, we're the people. We don't have all the.
facts.
But
we try and go
on what
we hear.
Well, we'
re
waiting
for
maybe the next
one to
come out
that it's
15
164 Chevys that burn oil for the pollutants is what they're
basing it on. You.can't go by what they say.
It just keeps escalating. The tact that Ir.
Roselund brought up about the houses in the area, what
you're basically looking at is like building the power plant
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in the Hollywood Bowl. It's the same type of thing. It's
an amphitheater. If you take a look at the hillside sur-
rounding it, you're down in the bowl and the noise is going
to radiate up.
These are the questions that we would like
answered, and so far I've seen no one come forward.
Cal Fed can't even agree on their own things. They're say-
ing that the noise may go up; it may go down. They're not
sure. Southern California Edison, who runs the one in San
Dimas that was in this letter that they wanted us to go
out and look at, they even say it's just a pilot. They
don't know what it's going to do. They don't know if it's
going to be economically feasible. They don't know if they
will save money on it. This whole thing may be a sham.
We heard last Monday night from their own people
that they have a permit to build, and it will take one year
before they actually have the permit to operate because
of the Air Quality Management. They have this trial period.
Does that mean that we have to put up with one
year of pollutants being pumped out into our atmosphere
to find out that this thing isn't working quite the way
it should be? And I would just like to have somebody re-
spond and give us some answers, whether it is 10 well-tuned
cars, whether it's 15 '64 Chevys. What is it? At least
give us the facts and let us know.
They're saying that we're prejudiced, that we
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have unbiased (sic) opinions and all this type of thing.
We're trying to formulate opinions. As it stands right
now, with the information we have right now, I don't think
we really need the power plant in our neighborhood.
Thank you very much.
MR. VELJACIC: My name is Walter Veljacic,
V-e-1-j-a-c-i-c. I live at 8216 Yarrow Street in South
San Gabriel.
Gentlemen, I voice my opposition to this power
plant. I'm sure we're all aware of the condition in the
air in this valley. And with smog pollution control devices
on this thing or not, let's face it: When this thing fires
up, it's going to pollute. And for the sake of our children
and for the coming citizens of this community, we don't
need no more pollution. We do not want this power plant
in our community and it is your job to stop it now.
Thank you.
MS. YSASIS: My name is Margaret Ysasis,
Y-s-a-s-i-s. I live at 8457 Sarah Street. I am one of
the people that live on top. I'll be above the power plant
and I have damage already.
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, ma'am. The people in back
can't hear you.
MS. YS= S: I have damage already. my sun deck
has pulled away from the wall. It's up on the second level.
The tile has pulled away. I know we're talking about damage
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and what it's going to do.
Now you say there is no more helicopter. I
don't believe it. It will come eventually. You will put
it on top of that building. That helicopter is going to
be zooming on top of that house, and our house is going
to vibrate and bounce all over the place.
I don't want any of it. Thank you.
MR. GALINDO: My name is Steven Galindo,
G-a-1-i-n-d-o. I reside at 8458 Sarah Street. I grew up
on that street as a child and I can't help but think of
my children and,the children of all the residents of South
San Gabriel in connection with this power plant.
My opposition to the plant is manyfold, but
I believe that the striking factor is that it has been fil-
led with deceit. I feel that deceit is run through the
entire project.
When I first read of this whole project, it
was touted in Rosemead Review as being a park-like structure
office complex and it is clear that there is nothing park-
like about it, with that humongous building, the four-story
parking structure and now the power plant. There won't
be any room for greenery whatsoever.
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, sir. The people in the
front row, you're going to have to be quiet. If you don't
be quiet, we're going to have to ask you to leave.
MR. GALINDO: I would like to point out that all the
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citizens that you see here are law-abiding, upstanding
citizens. They can be regarded as pillars of the community.
And I think it is unfair to treat them in this fashion.
My heart goes out to these residents, especially
the people on Yarrow Street who are going to have the lights
of the building glaring including myself the lights
of the building glaring in my bedroom at night, since it
is a 24-hour facility. when the people on Yarrow look out
their bedroom window, 40 feet away there is going to be
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this four-story parking structure. The sound ana emissions
alone from that facility will be noxious.
The heliport, apparently that is a moot issue'
at this point, but it does go to show the mounds and the
leaps of what Cal Fed is trying to do. You give them an
inch and they take a foot.
I think it's clear that what the people are
asking for, the Environmental Impact Report, is very little
to ask for. It's something that Cal Fed should have done
a long time ago. If the executives of Cal Fed were living
in the area had young children, if you were living right
there with your young children, I'm sure you would be
concerned. Forget about the adults and the children. Let's
talk about the kids in the schools nearby. These children
can't Ispeak for themselves.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: That's right.
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MR. GALINDO: I think that all of these things have
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been a slap in the face to the community, and the power
plant is the final resort, the last resort. Why can't Cal
Fed, with its abundance of resources, purchase power from
Edison Company like we all do? It's not a novel idea. And
what really strikes me is that they're going to turn a pro-
fit by selling the excess power from the power plant to
the Edison Company again. The whole project is out of sync
with the community.
If it backed up to the wash or backed up to
the
golf
course,
that
is
something else.
But they're
talk-
ing
about
homes
here.
I
think that what
we're asking
for,
an Environmental Impact Report, is very little indeed to
ask for. I think you owe it not only to the members of
the community, but to our children as well.
Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRMAN: We're going to take a 10-minute break
right now. We'll be back in 10 minutes.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: Before we have a break, Mr.
Chairman, I would like to have the floor for a minute.
THE CHAIRMAN: Just a moment.
P+ir. Schymos, go ahead.
COMMISSIONER SCHYPIOS: Mr. Chairman, we've neard 10
speakers ana we have got a pretty well cross-section of
the reasons that the people don't want this power plant.
And it's following about the same lines as it did last week.
Now, I'll buy Mrs. Holtz' suggestion that when
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we come back off the break, let's have a hand vote to see
and a hand count to see how many are opposed to this. Vie
can pretty well figure that most of them have about the
same ideas that we have heard.
Now, we have heard about the same things this
week as we have last week. I know that these people don't
want to waste their time any more than we want to waste
ours. I think it is time the Commission put an end to this
so the Commissioners might have some ideas to lay before
the Commission.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: I would like a chance
to speak.
ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Some people still
want to speak.
THE CHAIRMAN: We'll take a 10-minute break.
(Short recess.)
THE CHAIRMAN: Could we please come back to order.
Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to say one
thing. Tonight we have had a group of five or six students
that came in and listened to this for their class. I just
want to mention to you, ladies and gentlemen, there are
some young people, seven or eight of them. Came in here
to do a class study on this tonight. I think the kids
should be complimented, being here and spending the time
that they have.
Thank you, fellows, for the interest.
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Go ahead, sir.
MR. CASTILLO: My name is Edward Castillo, 3133 North
Evelyn, Rosemead. C-a-s-t-i-1-1-o.
I'm stating my opposition to what will amount
to 24-hour kilowatts. for the four generators that they pro-
pose to build, besides all the pollution. And I guess there
is the noise, but nobody said anything about whether they
had an environmental Impact Statement or not. No?
So it looks like it's the case of the cart
before the horse here. And without that I was under
the I guess illusion that you could not go ahead with a
project of that magnitude, but I guess if you're big enough
you can do anything you want.
Cal Federal also mentioned that Washington and
Sacramento encourages cogeneration. They c:o, but they're
encouraging soft energy generation, not the old phosphorous
fuel generation which is nothing but pollution. And they
tell us every day that we're running out of oil. What they
really encourage under these cogeneration laws that's
where they give tax breaks or credits is solar wind gen-
eration and solar or wind or hydro, if you own a stream
going through your property. They encourage you to harness
it and tnis type. And what they show us here I don't
understand anything what they've showed me on the wall nere,
and I don't know if too many people here do.
That's all I have to say.
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THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
Ladies and gentlemen, there are a few empty
seats here. Why don't you come in and sit down and be com-
fortable and fill some of these seats up. There is one
back over here. There are two or three here.
MR. RIGHTMEIER: Ply name is Loren Rightmeier. I live
at oh, excuse me. The emphysema is acting up.
The name is Rightmeier, R-i-g-h-t-m-e-i-e-r.
I live at 8724 Valley Boulevard down here.
I am here just for to be real short. I found
a piece of paper handed to me. It says down here in the
first paragraph, "You will only go on public record as being
opposed to this project if you come forward and speak. Your
presence here tonight is important but will ultimately have
no permanent value unless you speak individually to the
Planning Commission."
So I'm speaking no.
Thank you.
MR. CHAMIEL: My name is Robert Chamiel, C-h-a-m-i-e-1.
I live at 8502 East Village Lane in Rosemead.
I wanted to speak to the Commission tonight
because the gentleman from Cal Fed addressed the members
of the community and I wish to respond to some of the things
that he stated. First of all, I want to talk about the
four engines which he stated would not be operating all
the time. Well, my question is if they're not going to
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be operating all the time and on the average only two of
them are operating, why are four being built? Why not
three, if the average is two? This would cut down the
pollution. And I think that that is the major reason that
people of Rosemead are concerned about this power plant
and why the Planning Commission should be. Because the
main issue here is pollution; it's sound; it's air, and
I guess the other nebulous one was esthetics. But the point
is that pollution is being created.
They're not saying there is going to be no
pollution. There is pollution. It's going to happen and
it's not something that should be summed up in a negative
impact report. It's something that should be evaluated
because it is there and it is a negative factor. There
is no one in any form of authority which would say that
pollution of any kind is positive. It is all negative.
That is why there are certain things like an Environmental
Impact Report. That's why they were formed.
And I would also like to say that in regards
to legislation, when the gentleman from Cal Fed stated the
legislatures, I think that he was being interpretive in
the
same sense
that
most laws are
interpreted.
That law
as
he stated it
did
not encourage
cogeneration to
be built
in residential areas. They did not encourage cogeneration
at the expense of local residents. And that's the major
issue, because the major issue concerning us here tonight
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is the City of Rosemead; that is, the Planning Commission,
of which you are a part. Those are the members of the-Rose-
mead community.
And I
haven'
t seen
anything
demonstrated
as
to how this power
plant
benefits
the City
of Rosemead
or
its residents in any way, shape, or form. I believe that
the development is a good thing, and I'm not opposed to
the office building because it has certain positive factors.
But there is no positive factor to the City of Rosemead
for consideration of this power plant. It only benefits
Cal Fed. It does not benefit the City of Rosemead and
that's what we should take into consideration.
I think it is a significant fact that not one
memoer of the community has come to speak on Cal Fed's
behalf. All these people are here because they oppose the
power plant because they oppose it in their heart and
because they oppose it based on the facts which they have
been presented. That's all, you know. That's the truth.
There is nothing to state to the contrary, and I think that
we should take into consideration who this thing is bene-
fitting and junk it accordingly because there is nothing
in it for Rosemead at all. And I think that that. is your
major responsibility to the city, not to Cal Fed.
Thank you.
MR. SANCHEZ: My name is David Sanchez, S-a-n-c-h-e-z.
I would like to address the Commission that I am opposed)
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against
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanchez, your address, please.
MR. SANCHEZ: 8816 Highpine Street, South San Gabriel.
I would like to address my opposal to the cogen-
eration plant. The community has voiced its opinion. It
doesn't want it. Cal Fed still insists on having it. Please
make your decision and make it fast because people are
really my family was not informed; I was not informed.
And I think there has been a lot of misinformation going
around and I have received information on opposing the
plant. I haven't received information supporting the plant.
And the decision that I've' made is on the information I
have received from the opposing parties of the plant. And
I don't want pollution.
If there is going to be pollution and that is
the final thing, I really don't want pollution in the area
as it is.
I read that Southern California Edison had gone
around to the neighborhood in the community to announce,
I guess, it's moving and it's going to propose the building
and Cal Fed was not I didn't receive anything from Cal
Fed that they were going to propose a cogeneratic:: plant
and neither the City of Rosemead or Cal Fed that there was
going to be this plant built. And I live less than a
quarter of a mile away frow the plant.
Again, I would like to reemphasize that my
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family is not here but I oppose the cogeneration plant.
MR. LAVERDE: My name is Refugio Laverde. I live
at 9224 East Ralph Street.
I've been looking around with a lot of people
and I haven't heard anything for the thing, but for the
most part everybody here is against the plant. And I feel
the same way. I don't see why it should be built. Like
everybody has been saying, what good is it going to be for
Rosemead?
I haven't heard anything for it and I would
like to-know who do you guys represent? Do you represent
the people or the company? Whose side are you guys on?
THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think that needs a response.
Go right ahead, sir.
MR. LAVERDE: I would like an answer.
THE CHAIRMAN: We represent the people of Rosemead,
naturally.
MR. LAVERDE: As you can see, everybody here is to-
tally opposed against it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please, sir, if you have a statement,
make it. I've responded to it. I'm not going to respond
again.
MR. LAVERDE: If you guys are representing the people,
everybody out here is against the thing. So you guys know
to vote against it.
That's all I would like to say. Thank you.
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MR. VALENZUELA: My name is Greg Valenzuela,
V-a-l-e-n-z-u-e-1-a, 8244 East Bleeker Street. And I
oppose am against the power plant for the residents and
mainly for the pollution. As it is, we have a dump site
right over here in h+iontebellow with pollution as it is.
And here we are going to have another one.
What with great stacks of height that doesn't
mean nothing. All that means is that it's going to be
spread more. The elderly, let them have a few more years
to live, clean. The young, don't smother their lungs. Let
the people have a few more years to live..
PAR. HOLTZ: My name is Farrell Holtz, H-o-1-t-z. I
live in South San Gabriel on Bleeker Street right above.
It's on the hill. We get a nice view of the power plant
and everything. And I notice there is not a lot of younger
people here. I wish there were more younger people here.
I think they should get involved in this because the younger
people are a great part of our community, and a lot of my
friends are telling me they think it's really bad aoout
this power plant because of the pollution.
I'm a runner. I run across country. We have
to take off days not to run, which breaks down our team
and messes up everything. So we have to run on smoggy days.
And I run by the insurance company and right by Cal Fed
where their power plant is going to be. And it's not going
to help us one bit, breathing. It's not going to help our
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environment and animal life, the trees and all that good
stuff we have.
It's going to hurt us a lot, and I just think
you should think more about the people and the environment.
They're just making money.
MR. SHINEN: My name is Lewis Shinen, S-n-i-n-e-n.
I live at 8447 Drayer Lane.
I notice that nobody commented on the acid rain,
on the reciprocating engine. That is what they have, don't
they? Is that what they're using, the reciprocating engine?
Is it a diesel? It's natural gas?
what do they do if they run out of natural gas?
Well, anyway, if you notice, during World War I they had
an airplane. I think it was the Mustang. Had the Hercules
engine, 1,600 horsepower. That's half of what this is going
to produce and I think if the people can associate this
more, if they look in the sky and they see all these vapor
trails and I think at cruising, that engine will use
325 gallons of gasoline an hour.
Now, when it ourns, it proauces that much in
water. And all these contaminants are suspended in that.
And then on a chilly day or whenever the cold front hits
it, it drops to the ground. When the sulfuric acid or
nitric acid is formed by the water and the nitrate, nitrate
or whatever, oxides, that in turn is crashed away down the
gutter into our streams, trees or well, 1 guess if you
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take a study of the acid rain, you will find out more about
it. That's all I wanted to know and just add to it.
Thank you.
MR. GONZALES: My name is Jose Gonzales. I live at
8527 Village Lane, South San Gabriel. G-o-n-z-a-l-e-s.
Members of the Planning Commission, Mr. Chair-
man, ladies and gentlemen, this will be very brief. I only
have three items that I want to cover.
First, I didn't know that Cal Fed was in the
energy business. Second, I am in complete agreement with
the opposition.
(Short recess.)
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Mr. Chairman, if you will give me
a minute, please, after you call it to order.
THE CHAIRMAN: Can we please come back to order.
With that, ladies and gentlemen, our good Mayor
Jay Imperial would like to make a statement.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to project
at this time that in no way am I trying to usurp the power
of our Planning Commission in this meeting. I think this
is a special situation. I thought it only fair to speak
to you for a minute and tell you where we stand right now.
As far as I am concerned and I had to cancel
a trip to do it tonight. I wanted to make sure everything
went the way it should and everyone got a chance that wanted
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to speaK tonight. I think that that is your democratic
right and I'm sure that your rights are protected and this
planning commission wanted to do that also.
Now, we have come to a situation right now where
we have had one man who has had a heart attack. I hope
to God that everything goes well for him. After my little
thing, I would like us all to bow our head in a moment of
prayer for him. But before we get to that point, I would
just like to say that in my opinion and if that is what
you want, you can continue. You can talk until 3:00 or
4:00 o'clock this morning, or you can ask for this meeting
to be adjourned to another public hearing because you have
a right to speak.
I would just like to remind'you that until such
time as you all feel satisfied that you had a chance to
exercise your rights, no decision can be made by this plan-
ning commission. So if you want to talk for three, four
or five weeks, that is your prerogative. And I'm behind
you 100%.
If you want to continue until 3:00 o'clock--
just a minute, sir.
If you want to continue until 3:00, 4:00, that's
fine. We're prepared to stay. it you want to stop znis
meeting and go to anotner public hearing where you can do
basically the same thing maybe the next time or the time
after that, that is your prerogative and I will stand behind
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your right to do so. You have my guarantee on that. But
I'll repeat: This Commission will not be able to make any
decisions until such time as this debate is stopped.
I feel satisfied with many things I have heard,
not saying what my decision is. That's not my right to
say at this time. I'm sure this Planning Commission has
heard most of what they need to know, but I'm guaranteeing
your right to go on with what you have to do. But again,
if you want a decision, it's up to you. It lies solely
with you. Okay?
I'll respect this gentleman's wish to speak,
and then after that, please, a moment of silence and a
prayer for the gentleman that had the heart attack. And
we'll continue with business as you see fit.
Sir?
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Yes, Commissioners. At
this time I would like to make a motion that we continue
this meeting to a further date.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Well, that is one person's decision.
How does the majority feel? Please, can we take a show
of hands.
THE CHAIRMAN: That would be all of tnose in favor
of discontinuing this meeting to a later date this week
sometime.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Another public hearing.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Who will get notice of
this hearing?
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ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Can I reiterate
my motion. I made a motion to table this meeting, to be
adjourned at this time, to reconvene at a calendar date
of this Commission, allowing us to speak at a later time.
ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Did anybody second
that motion? Are we out of order or what?
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Listen, sir. We've had an emergency
here. Now, I am not trying to get formal. It's their meet-
ing, not mine. I just want to project something.
If you want to end this meeting tonight and
continue another date, then it's up to you. What is your
decision?
Let's see a show of hands for those that want
to continue another date, okay? Just raise your hand.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Mr. Mayor, under the pro-
vision that adequate notification be made to the people
of Rosemead.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Ma'am, let me say something here,
please. If you want to take shots at anybody, I want to
be the one you take shots at, okay? Because I listened
to the tape, too.
Now, I was the one that gave the okay to my
staff to send out to the people who would testify. It
wasn't staff's decision. It was mine.
Now, there are people that are in this room,
citizens that live in all areas. Now, it's not fair tc
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have a group comprised of people like this from all areas
and just mail to just a few. If that is the case, then
you have to go to a citywide mailing, and that's taxpayers'
money, yours and mine, ma'am.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: What about a notice in
the Independent, prominently fixed?
MAYOR IMPERIAL: That is normal procedure; that is
normal procedure. What you are saying is normal procedure.
We have done this. In fact, it is in the Tribune also.
Right, Bob?
MR. DICKEY: Right.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: We've done this in the Tribune and
the Independent. And what other papers did we hit it with?
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Is that the legal notices
at the end?
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Yes, ma'am.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Nothing on the front page
that people normally read as news?
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: This is leading nowhere, Mr.
Chairman.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Ma'am, if you look at the Los Angeles
City Council, you probably find out that they don't get
front page circulation also; neither does Governor Brown.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: I really would like a
continuance. I don't feel like going on with this meeting.
Mark Schwartz has had a lot of involvement with
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this. I would like to know what the continuance is going
to be. maybe Mark could contribute something to this.
MAYOR DPERIAL: Ma'am, all I'm asking at this point
it's your decision, not mine. If you think you need three
or
four public hearings,
if that is
what it's gci::,: to take
to
convince you that we
're doing
the rignt thing to get
the
most input there
will never be any decision until
such time as the public hearing is stopped and this Commis-
sion can make a decision.
I don't think after all the input I've heard,
really, that anything you say for the next three meetings
is going to change their opinion. And we've had some fan-
tastic input from some pretty intelligent people here, okay?
I'm saying this so if you want to continue, that's up to
you. I'm behind you 100%.
But if you want any kind of decision from this
Commission at all, then you have got to let them react.
Estelle, you wanted to say something?
-.IS. HOLTZ: Yes.
I'm not in good shape as I was before, but I
think our community this could go on for months. I don't
think we snould drag it to more public hearings if we can
get an answer tonight. I think the toll is taking on us,
especially the older community, and it reflects on all of
us. Ana I think some tnings nave to be very, very clear.
Plumber one, I want it very clear botn on the
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environmental impact. I for one think it's very unfair
not to have an Environmental Impact. How many people feel
you should have at least an Environmental Impact?
Everybody but Cal Fed feels that way.
The next thing is I feel very strongly and no
one would be here if they didn't feel very strongly. We
do not want that power plant under any conditions, and I
want to see a show of hanas for votes.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you have
heard me and you have heard Estelle. What is your pleasure?
Do you want to end this public hearing?
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Go on.
ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Let's get it taken
care of tonight.
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Let's get a show of hands that want
to continue the public hearing, a show of hands for those
people that want this to be the last public hearing and
let these people make a decision, if that oe the case, okay?
Okay, to my summation then, this is carried.
You have told me what you want.
Okay, thank you very much. I appreciate it,
all your efforts. I appreciate your courtesy to me as a
mayor of this city, trying to keep this thing together and
make it right for everybody.
I want to thank you very much, and please, Mr.
Chairman, before we continue this meeting, let's have a
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moment of prayer for this :Hatt who just had the heart attack.
(Moment of silence.)
MAYOR IMPERIAL: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
And I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the chance to
speak, which I don't normally do.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, for your input.
It was a big help.. Thank you again.
(Applause.)
THE CHAIRMAN: With that, we'll continue the public
hearing. Would there be anybody else at this time that
would wish to get up and speak in opposition?
MR. GONZALES: I'm awfully sorry for what happened.
I had one more item to cover.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Give your name, address.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gonzales, would you please give
your name again, please.
MR. GONZALES: Jose Gonzales. I live at 8527 Village
Lane, South San Gabriel and I will repeat the first item
that I had talked on well, not very much, but the first
one is that I didn't know that Cal Fed was in the energy
business. Second, I am in complete agreement with the
opposition, and thirdly, I am appalled that the City of
Rosemead incurred this type of application.
Thank you.
MR. OCHOE: My name is George Ochoe, 0-c-h-o-e. I
will make this orief under the tragedy that happened.
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THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, your address, please.
MR. OCHOE: 1636 North Delta, Rosemead, California.
On December the 3rd and the 26th of 1979 I came
to this meeting by Mr. Schwartz. At that time we were shown
blueprints of an office with a lot. It was a lot, a level
parking and landscaping in the perimeter. At no time was
a power plant discussed.
I live within 300 feet of the plant. I am very
distressed at the way the whole thing has been handled.
I did not receive notice of the March meeting. It was Mr.
Schwartz that elucidated me on the meeting.
I want to say I'm completely opposed to the
power plant. Thank you.
MR. DOWINOUEZ: Gentlemen, my name is Arcie Dominquez.
I live at 7874 East La Merced Road in South San Gabriel.
I'm here to state
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Would you spell it for
her.
MR. DOiII NQUEL: D-o-m-i-n-q-u-e-z.
I'm here to state that I'm in complete agreement
with the opposition. Thank you.
MR. ARROYO: My name is Oscar Arroyo, A-r-r-o-y-o.
I live at 6329 East Rush, Rosemead.
I think we're at a point where, like many other
things, they start small and many times end up large or
gigantic. It doesn't have to be Cal Fed. It could have
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been anybody else. But I think if we allow them to come
in and put a power plant here there is a lot of unused
land adjacent to the Title Insurance Company that other
companies could or for that matter, they could already
be in planning to come and populate the entire area with
more power plants. I think we should stop them now so that
we don't get a number of big corporations coming in here
and polluting our community.
Thank you.
,,IR. SCHiNARTZ: My name is Mark Schwartz,
S-c-h-w-a-r-t-z. I live at 1638 North Delta Street in South
San Gabriel.
Mr. Carmona made a comment at the beginning
of the meeting this evening about the few folks that had
made inquiries here into the files. And I might say that
with the help and assistance of the law firm that is repre-
senting me, that we have spent thousands of dollars of our
own personal funds in reprinting the information that you
provided in those files to mail out to the people of the
community. And perhaps that's why there were only as few
people that came to read your files.
In addressing the comment made by Mr. Benzian
about the State of California and Jerry Brown encouraging
cogeneration, I personally talked to Ron Bass, as I'm sure
some of you gentlemen might have talked to him as well as
my attorney and other members of the folks that are in the
audience here.
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Nir. Bass is Jerry Brown's coordinator, of cogen-
eration throughout the State of California. When I talked
to mr. Bass approximately two weeks ago, he had talked to
mr. Carmona and he had just a couple of days prior to my
phone call talked to Mr. Benzian. At the point that I
talked to him, he had no knowledge of the cogeneration plant
being built in a residential community, and he informed
me that to the best of his knowledge there was no such plant
of this magnitude and size adjacent to a residential com-
munity anywhere in the United States.
His comment to me was that he felt that the
cogeneration plant would be totally inappropriate in such
a location. He further commented to me that the guidelines
estaolisned
by the State were
general
guidelines and that
other such
power plant were
in rural,
industrial or out-
lying commu
nities.
I myself had made a personal investigation of
the other power plants that Mr. Carmona himself had visited
as well. I have been in negotiations with my attorneys
and Cal Fed's attorneys and Cal rFed's principals on three
separate occasions. I don't know that it would be appro-
priate to discuss those negotiations because they are per-
sonal between myself and California Federal. However, there
should be a couple of things brought to light.
Mr. Ritchie, at the last meeting you had spec-
fically asKed California Federal if there were some kind
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of monitoring devices that they could put on their equip-
ment to assist all of us in knowing what that equipment
might do in the future. And I thought your suggestion: was
I attempted to discuss with Cal Fed, I presented your sug-
gestion and they answered that they would be receptive to
it. And in the second meeting they responded that Beckman
Instruments manufactured a NOX monitoring device that could
tell them should the NOX emissions exceed a certain level,
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and in fact shut down the system at a certain point. In
the subsequent meeting that was held, they declined to use
that NOX monitoring device because it cost between $60-
and $70,000.
Tonight they're throwing us a bone with no meat,
I must say, on it, of offering someone to check their equip-
ment twice a year. I don't think that that is what you
had in mind, Mr. Ritchie. And since such instrumentation
exists and since this power plant is approximately a 53
million facility-and since apparently it will affect the
quality of all our lives, $60,000 for a device that might
alleviate some of the fears and concerns of the people here
seems like a worthwhile investment.
I made a number of other suggestions and pro-
posals to Cal Fed. Unfortunately, we're addressing just
the cogeneration plant tonight. But there is a project,
as you gentlemen know, that includes many other additions
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that are not relevant to tonight's hearing. But I felt
tnat those additions as a total project were important to
discuss; not just for myself and my family, but also for
all of the members of the community. And more specifically,
those people whose homes are very much adjacent and close
by the project.
I'm sure that you gentlemen are probably aware
that the Edison Company uses buses and various forms of
transportation to take a number of their employees in and
out of the area. I suggested that to Cal Fed, that perhaps
they could initiate mandatory computerized car pooling and
a shuttle bus service to various points outlying the San
Gabriel Valley, in an effort to reduce the amount of incom-
ing vehicles into the neighoorhood, which by your own re-
ports, indicate there will be serious traffic problems and
traffic accidents in the future in the immediate area. And
by doing this, they could make efforts to reduce the amount
of pollutants that would come into the area by these ve-
hicles in an amount equivalent to the output that the co-
generation plant would put out. In other words, if you
gentlemen were going 'to approve this cogeneration plant,
for them to have mandatory car pooling and guaranteed snut-
tle service to keep a certain number of vehicles out of
the neighoorhood, reducing congestion, possible traffic
accidents and the amount of pollutants equivalent to what
the cogeneration plant would put out. They gave me a simple
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answer. The answer was no.
After three days of negotiations, at a great
deal of my own personal expense, I was unable to come to
an amiable solution with Cal Fed. I must admit personally
on my part they're trying to make some strides and efforts,
but that's not going to take care of the needs of the com-
munity. 5o at the end of three days of negotiations, I un-
fortunately had to walk out.
I do not feel that the attitude of the Cal Fed
principals is on the side of the City of Rosemead, nor do
I think that the attitude of Cal Fed is on the side of the
homeowners here. With all due respect, I don't know the
background of you gentlemen. I'm a businessman myself and
I don't profess to be professional in cogeneration. I would
question if any of you gentlemen are truly experts in cogen-
eration. I don't want to pass the buck to you. I think that
the people retained by Cal Fed certainly have to have some
bias. They are retained and paid by Cal Fed.
I make a suggestion to you: That a project of
this magnitude and importance requires unbiased outside,
professional, competent investigation. Any other decision
other than a proper Environmental Impact Report :would be
a very bad decision on your part, and I hope tnat you can
make the decision this evening to vote for this Environ-
mental Impact Report.
Thank you.
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THE CHAIRMAri: There are a lot of seats down here
for you folks. Why don't you sit down and be comfortable.
MR. ABELSON: My name is LeRoy Abelson. I'm with
the law firm of O'Neill 6 Huxtable.
I had intended to spend a 'considerable time
talking to you about a lot of the things that Mr. Benzian
spoke about last week. With what has happened, I have to
confess that I just don't feel much like talking. I do feel
that it is very important that I talk about one or two
things. The first is I feel that Mr. Benzian has misstatea
what the purpose of this meeting is here tonight.
As you know, we're here on a design review and
a negative declaration. Now, Mr. Benzian seems to feel of
the opinion that since his project is in the right zone,
since the City Counsel has approved the zoning, that he
has some sort of entitlement to do anything that is allowed
in that zone. Well, that's absolutely wrong. This Commis-
sion has the duty to review and decide on the design. if
the design is not acceptable, then this Commission has the
duty to reject this project. And I submit that Mr. Benzian's
pious statement that they have some sort of entitlement
to do it just because they're in the right zone is complete-
ly incorrect. And in fact, it's not within the CEQA guide-
lines. CEQA requires that an environmental consideration
be made. It requires that this be done independent of the
fact of whether the project is in the right zone. After
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all, if that were the case, there would be no need for CEQA
because every project that would be in the right zone would
have some sort of entitlement. And CEQA would not be nec-
essary. So I submit that this Commission does have the duty
and the right and the obligation to make a decision on
whether this project is environmentally sound, to make a
consideration as to whether it is in conformance with the
other properties in the area. And I submit that this Commis-
sion can take into this proposal any condition that it feels
is necessary and appropriate and that there is no entitle-
ment on the part of Cal Fed to have this project, even
though it's not environmentally sound.
I want to make one other comment on something
that Mr. Benzian spoke about last week. He talked about
there being 2,638,000 NOX emissions in the South Coast Air
Quality District each day. And he tried to persuade you
by that large number that this 150 pounds is merely a drop
in the bucket. But I'm going to demonstrate to you that
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all that does is demonstrate how facts and figures can be
misleading. I think what we have to do is make a considera-
tion of how many acres are within the South Coast Air Qual-
ity District. Well, I wondered that myself. I called the
South Coast Air Quality District. They told me there were
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6,600 acres and it was comprised of the entire count
is of orange and Riverside and the non-desert portions of
Los Angeles and San Bernardino County. 6,600 acres is some-
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tning like 4,230,000 6,600 square miles. That's what
they told me it was. That's 4,230,000 acres. And when you
spread this 2,268,000 pounds of pollutants over 4 million
acres, you get sometning like .62 pounds per acre.
So what I'm talking about is the average emis-
sion on an acre of ground is .62 pounds. Cal Fed's proposal
is going to add 16 pounds per acre.
I would submit that primarily all this shows
is how distorting the statistics that intr. Benzian has thrown
at you can be.
Finally, I just want to spend one more point
on what it is that a negative declaration is. Mr. Carmona
said that a negative declaration is a finding that there
is no substantial effect on the environment. He left out
one word: No potential substantial effect on the environ-
ment. The people out here have made very eloquent state-
ments, more eloquent than I could make. They've told you
all their concerns. They made a lot of good points. I think
they have demonstrated that there are many potentially ad-
verse effects on the environment, none of which have been
considered and none of which Mr. Benzian can come up here
after I'm finished and argue away.
I submit the people have spoken. They've demon-
strated a need for an Environmental Impact Report. And I
don't think anything short of that is proper under these
circumstances.
Thank you.
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THE CHAIRHAN: with that, would there be anybody else
wisning to speak in opposition? Anybody at all have anything
to say in opposition?
Not seeing anybody, as we explained when we
first started this meeting, the opposition or the propo-
nents would have a chance for rebuttal if they wish to take
that opportunity at this time.
Mr. Benzian?
FIR. BENZIAH: I, like Mir. Abelson, lost my taste for
a great deal of further continent in light of the tragic cir-
cumstances tonight. But despite the fact that this Corimis-
sion's record I think is overflowing the brim and that there
is already ample support in my opinion for a conclusion
that a negative declaration should oe adopted by this Coin-
;nission, and to modify the design review submitted by Cal
'red, approved, there are two points raised by i•1r. Schwartz
and tnr. Aoelson that I would like to briefly respona to.
There was a particularly disturbing implication
I think in the remarks of Mr. Schwartz concerning the dis-
cussions that we had over the last week. Disturoing, first,
because at the start of those discussions both sicies repre-
sented to the other that the details of our settlement dis-
cussions would be considered confidential. The fact that
they have been aired tonight does not disturb me in the
sense of the substantive comments. It does disturb me that
that pledge has been violated.
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The more disturbing thing, however, is in the
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suggestion that Cal Fed was not amenable to some sort of
provision concerning car pooling or shuttle bus service
or other similar programs designed to minimize vehicular
traffic in an effort to offset the negligible amounts of
air emissions that this cogeneration facility would emit.
And we did submit a proposal to Mr. Schwartz on that spec-
ific suggestion, admittedly perhaps not as broad and all-
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inclusive as Mr. Schwartz would have liked. But Cal Fed
attempted to meet that one of Mr. Scnwartz' 12 points, as
well as all the other points. We did not reach an agreement
and I was disappointed that we did not. But it was not for
lack of Cal Fed's trying to meet Mr. Schwartz' concerns
and, in so doing, trying to meet the concerns of all the
residents of the City of Rosemead and the community of South
San Gabriel.
idir. Abelson's remarks aoout statistics calls
to mind a statement that I thinK was made by Disraeli or
Churchill or one of the Britisn prime ministers who accused
somebody of using statistics like a drunk uses lampposts
for support rather than illumination. And pernaps we're
all a bit guilty of that. That is, the duty of this Commis-
sion to attempt to consider the factual materials that have
been submitted.
I suggest to the Commission that the facts of
this .natter cry out for the result .,inich Cal Fed is advocat-
ing. That, measured against those facts and nard supnor:.ir.g
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data, is a numoer of very well-meaning and I don't dis-
pute that for a moment. But nevE-rtheless, statements of
opinion which are not buttressed by the facts of the matter.
We submit that Mr. Carmona's staff report, the information
that forms the basis of that staff report, including Ultra
Systems' analysis of the specific issues that must concern
this Commission and the other material that has been submit-
ted to the City and which is in the Commission's files,
amply demonstrate that there is no potential for a signifi-
cant environmental effect by virtue of Cal Fed's proposed
cogeneration facility.
The standards in determining whether a full
EIk should be prepared is whether there is fair argument
based on substantial evidence that the proposed project
will have a significant effect on the environment. Ana sig-
nificant effect on the environment is, further defined as
a substantial adverse effect on the environment.
Witn respect to all of the environmental issues,
I submit there is no substantial evidence on which a fair
argument can be cased that this project may have a signifi-
cant effect on the environment. I urge the Commission to
adopt the negative declaration with its proposed conditions
and mitigation measures and to approve Cal Fed's design
review application. If the Commission needed any one point
to demonstrate the appropriateness of the negative declara-
tion, in this case I suggest it would oe the statements
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and a show of hands that Mrs. Holtz obtained when she asked
wnetner any members of the audience support a cogeneration
facility. And all of the people who have spoken here to-
night in opposition to the project immediately raised their
hands. That suggests to me that they have decided that issue
acid that need for further environmental review of this proj-
pct will prompt them to change their conclusions opposing
the project.
I submit that demonstrates the wasted effort
that would result from the preparation of an environmental
Impact Report. It is not merely the desire of California
Federal to proceed speedily or hastily without taking into
account all of the appropriate potential environmental
effects. Rather, we submit the desire of Cal Fed to finally
bring an end to the controversy, to resolve the issue when
there is full factual information upon which an informed
decision can be based, and we submit that the present record
amply permits that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Benzian.
With that, that concludes the public nearing.
We'll close the public hearing now. There will be discussion
by the Commissioners.
Any discussion by the Commissioners?
Commissioner Decocker?
COMMISSIONER DECOCKER: I would like to read a state-
ment to the audience:
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"It has been many years ago that we sat in
line waiting to put gasoline in our, cars. Today,
that type of situation is less possibility.
"Cogeneration facilities you see today are
only a fraction of what you will see in the future.
This cogeneration plant can save 125,000 gallons
of oil each year. Our plants today are not
efficient. They're antiquated. Cogeneration is
70, 80% efficient. They capitalize on the loss
of heat which is usually wasted.
"If you want more pollution, then build
more outdated plants which are 30 to 40% deficient."
Tonight we have two issues, the design review
and an environmental assessment. I live on the hill with
many of you and some of you are my neighbors. I am in favor
of a quiet and a safe neighborhood. Cal Fed has stated that
it will construct a plant that has a noise level of
36 dBA's. They will operate under the regulations of the
South Coast Management District and have a building that
will be esthetically pleasing.
As a Commissioner, I will do my best to see
that they live up to that agreement. Thank you, Mr. Chair-
man.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Commissioner Decocker.
Any other discussion by the Commissioners?
Commissioner Schymos, do you have a statement?
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CUMMISSIONEii SCHYIdOS: Yes.
,veil, after analyzing all of the notes that
I took at the last meeting we had here, 'Ar. Chairman, and
this meeting, I find that probably a lot of the opposition
to this plant is fear of change. It was remarked here that
we are not cogeneration experts. The Commissioners aren't,
nor are the people that testified here this evening in
opposition. Neither are we.environmental experts.
I read some things in the negative declaration
here that probably I wouldn't agree with as a layman. I've
got reams of explanations here with a lot of numbers I don't
confess to understand. But the bottom line comes back to
the fact that this plant by the experts these are state-
ments by the experts that this plant does come under the
provision that would be provided by the negative declara-
tion. I don't want this to be construed that I at the pres-
ent time am in favor of voting for a negative declaration,
in favor of it, if there were a motion made on the floor.
But I say this is my feeling. I believe that when I hear
these numbers of tons of pollution and then it's oeinc mini-
mized by catalytic converters and one thing or another,
then I hear a question by one of these Commissioners to
a representative of Cal Fed asking if they would live up
to some certain things and the representative says they
would. Then I hear tonight from ar. Schwartz that he has
asked that very question and that representative of Cal
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Fed said they would not agree to that. So it's very dif-
ficult. It's a very difficult thing and I think that this
Commission has to weigh many of these things. We should
take the time to consider whether there will oe a danger
to our community.
Certainly there is going to oe some addition
to the environmental impact. Any time there is a blade of
grass changed, there is a change. So there is going to be
some change. Whether the potential is within the guidelines
is another thing that we have to consider.
I'll leave it set there for a moment, Mr. Chair-
man.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Nlr. Schymos.
Commissioner Ritchie?
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Well, I haven't been giving
this subject considerable attention. I spent almost all
of fast week. I'm retired, so I can spend some time on
things that I want to spend some time on because I think
they're important.
I think that this is important, very important
for the citizens of our community. And I agree with Mr.
Schymos to some extent. I also agree with Mr. Uecocker to
some extent, but I think Mr. Schymos brought up a good point
aoout we should very carefully examine some of the things
that have been brought up tonight at this late date.
At the risk of repeating what others may have
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said, I would like to summarize what I perceive to be the
issues at this hearing. One of them is noise; another is
pollution, and another is esthetics. Then if you would bear
witn me, 1 woula like to restate what cogeneration in this
instance means, and then review some of the steps that were
required by us, the City, and Cal Fed concerning this proj-
ect. And then try to explain some of the state legislation
on the subject of cogeneration in what I think is language
that we can all understand. And then I would like to give
a summary of the noise and vibration study done by the
independent consultant. And again, I'm not going to try
to use too many numbers because I don't think that we are
all interested in these numbers. I use my wife as a sounding
board and I think she's as uninformed as anyone here.
Then I would like to enumerate the steps taken
by Cal Fed to
try
to comply and what
they have said that
they will do.
Mr. Schymos has brought up some good points
that I think need amplification. Then I'm going to try to
explain the role of the Air Cuality Management District
and the process and the general rules treat govern their
activity. 'This is not going to be in words that involve
a lot of numbers again, and then a short statement of the
esthetics planned for the Cal Fed project and then I would
like to conclude these remarks with my personal ooservations
and recommendations at this time.
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Now, on the cogeneration, the prefix "co-"
literally means operating together. Ana what this translates
to in the Cal Fed project is generating electrical power
needed by Cal Fed and also using the heat energy that would
ordinarily be wasted to also generate both the heating and
cooling needs of the facility, just operating together.
Now, the steps that were required by the City and Cal Fed:
In December of 1979 the Planning Commission recommended
and the City Council approved a zone change from A-1 to
C-3D, which is heavy commercial with a design overlay. Now,
the property later bought by Cal Fed in March of '81, the
Planning Commission received and granted a parking variance
on the property. At the same time the Planning Commission
adopted a negative declaration and approved a design concept
for this project. And I want to emphasize the word "con-
cepts," and at this time I would like to answer Mrs. Holly
Knapp's question that the Planning Commission did not pass
or review or pass on the building permit.
Now, the state legislation on cogeneration:
one piece of state legislation is the Calvo Bill, which
is called AB 524. And it was signed into law by Governor
Brown on September 21, 1979. It sounds like a long time
ago, but in terms of the type of things that we're looking
at tonight, it's like yesterday.
This legislation encourages the use of coger.era-
tion for and I want to quote here "further energy
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conservation and to lower air pollution by reducing the
need for increases in the public utilities power generation
facilities."
As part of the Calvo Bill, the Health and Safety
Code and I'm going to use some numbers here
Section 42314 was amended so that local rules and regula-
tions on cogeneration plants were nullified. The Calvo Bill
allows cogeneration plants of less than 50 million watts,
50 megawatts, if they conform to the pollution technology
required by the local air quality standards and specifies
that if these conditions are met, the local Air Quality
Management District shall issue a permit.
Incidentally, the Calvo Bill says that cogenera-
tion plants are a thing that they want to increase. In our
case this means the AQMD. We at the local level really don't
have any choice on whether a permit is given for this cogen-
eration plant or not.
And then there is another legislation known
as the Baker Bill which is AB 1862 that will become effec-
tive January 1, 1982. Mr. Benzian referred to this, but
ne said that the Cal Fed project would be the permit
would conte under the existing laws whicn allow only 150
pounds a day. Let me read you what the Baker Bill will add.
I'll try to tell you what the Barter bill will add to the
possible pollution.
"The Baker Bill will allow offset emission
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credits for the fossil fuel that would not be burned
by using cogeneration methods instead of conventional
methods."
I may not have phrased that exactly correct,
out in a conversation I had with Dave Schwain of the AQ1,1D
last week, he said that he feels that for determining the
amount of offset credit had not yet been adopted, but there
would no doubt be some offset credit allowed. What this
means is, as Mr. 6enzian said, not 150 pounds. These people
won't be confined to 150 pounds. It may be a lot more than
that. It may be double. I don't know because Mr. Schwain
said that the amount of offset credit had not been adopted,
but he is sure that they will be.
In regards to cogeneration plants in general,
what this means is that their large installations, such
as Cal Fed, which is a fairly small one, incidentally
there are two other 20-megawatt plants. I don't grant you
they are in industrial areas, but they have been granted
a permit.
There is also a 5-megawatt plant in the San
Fernando Valley that has been granted a permit and the
Huntington Hospital in the middle of Pasadena that has ap-
plied for a permit for seven gas turbine generators that
have no emission controls on them. Their net addition will
be 1,100 pounds a day, and they're allowed to do this under
the Calvo Bill. And you can shake your head and say no and
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all the other stuff. We do not have any chance or opportu-
nity to say no.
ilow, the
consultant
retained by Cal
Fed
and
I'm going to talk
about noise
and vibration
here
for a
minute they made noise level measurements at a Pima
County water treatment plant in Tucson, Arizona. That seems
like a long
ways to go, but they did.
This
cogeneration
equipment is
substantially the same as
the
)
proposed Cal
Fed cogeneration plant.
Then they observed and made noise measurementI
levels at the Cal Fed property line next to the residential
areas. They then used the more stringent County requirements
of the noise level of 45 dBA at the property line rather
than the 55 dBA allowed by the City of Rosemead. Each of
these gas engines and I don't think anyone has really
brought this out to the people here will be enclosed
in a double wall sound-absorbing cell. The engine enclosures
will be spaced a foot from the outside, eight-inch concrete
wall. The air intake ana exhaust will be located furthest
away from the residential properties. The engines will not
only be mounted on vibration-absorbing springs and fastened
to a concrete base, but they will also be further isolated'
from the actual building and the earth by a one-inch struc-
tural gap filled with asphalt, impregnated fiberglass. This
will take care of any vibration transmission in these
engines. I have been to an installation not a power cen-I
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erator out a punch press of very large capacity. You
can stand right next to it and you could not feel the earth
move. Exhaust piping. They've gone to this extent. Exhaust
piping will not be directly attached to the building but
will be supported by vibration-absorbing hangers. The inlet
air for the engines will be routed through a sound-absorbing
plenum. Centrifugal fans they've gone into detail. Cen-
trifugal fans will be used instead of noisier propeller
fans on the cooling towers to reduce the noise level from
this part of the facility. This may have answered some of
the questions for people who live 500 feet away on top of
the hill.
Now they've offered to further reduce any noise
or vibration coming from their central plant by relocating
this facility so the westerly wall will be approximately
180 feet from the nearest residential property insteaa of
the original proposed 20 feet. I understand that there has
been some mention here tonight that it took this puolic
meeting ana it took these people protesting to get tnem
to move that plant. I agree with you. if I were Going to
do an environmental review or rather a design review, if
this had been mentioned at the time it cane before the Plan-
ning Commission, believe me, I think that I speak for the
Planning Commission, this building would not have beer:
located that close to residential property.
Now, we're going to talk a little bit about
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the role of the AOrID. The only thing they have to do is
monitor and maze sure that Cal Fed complies with their
emission requirements. I would like to read you at this
point and I just got this this afternoon. It's from the
South Coast Air Quality Management District, the Engineering
Division application processing and calculations. It recom-
mends, "since the proposed equipment is expected to comply
with all the applicable rules, I recommend" now, this
is an Air Quality Management engineer who reviewed this
cogeneration application by Cal Fed speaking "I recommend
issuing permits to construct with the following conditions:
One, within 90 days after startup, that catalytic converters
shall be tested to determine the emission of organic NO
and carbon monoxide; two, every 12 months after that they
shall be retested for organic NOX and carbon monoxide."
Now, Cal Fed tonight has made a further con-
cession to add that they will enter into a monitoring agree-
ment with Emission Control Systems of Novato, California.
Now, this would probably be the same people who would prob-
ably do the AQMD monitoring every four montns or
quarterly every three months, rather than every year.
And I want to repeat again that under the Calvo Sill the
AUMD has no choice but to issue a permit for the cogenera-
tion plant.
I only have a couple more pages. Please bear,
with me. I think we bore your testimony and listened atten-
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tively and I would appreciate if you would listen to mine.
[Vow the esthetics. From what I can determine
after examining the architectural renderings and the reading
of the descriptions of plant trees and other foliage to
be used around the property, it looks like the facility
will present as pleasing a view as possible, considering
the size of the project. tdow, my conclusions up to no
I've only been talking about the physical facts regarding l'
the project. It has always been my position that bricks
and mortar are not the only things that must be taken into
consideration in a community project, whether it be an ad-
dition of a neighbor's carport or a big building complex)
like this one.
Let's look bacK for just a minute. There has)
been much talk about people being here a long time and it's
spoiling their view, spoiling this and spoiling that. 30
years ago and that's not very long ago Rosemead was
a suburb. We had chicken ranches. ,Ale had vegetable gardens
and we had fruit orchards. And West Covina was way out there
in the country. It was just a mass of orange orchards out
tnere anyway. But that was 30 years ago in the 1950's.
Today we're no longer in the suburbs. ;ve're
now and have been for some time part of the urban sprawl.
What I'm getting at is the same thing that Mr. Schymos
talked about. The change is continually taking place,
whether we like it or not.
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I don't particularly like the apartment building
that went up down the block. I voted for it because it was
in the right zone and it was the only thing I could do.
Neither
do
I enjoy
th
e sight
of
Montgomery
Ward's
every
time I
head
west up
my
street,
and
Lord Knows
I sure
don't
like the view of all those six-story buildings across the
freeway from where I live. I don't go for the sound and
the vioration of a freignt train or an 18-wheeler rolling
down the freeway day and night. We have to keep our doors
closed. But, you see, Rosemead is situated only a few
minutes from both a major north-south and an east-west free-
way. It's a nice place to live for many reasons, and one
of those is that it is so close to everything in the L.A.
Basin. And for that reason, the Edison Company, followed
by Title Insurance and now Cal Fed, decided that Rosemead
was the ideal place for their headquarters.
Now, the City of Rosemead, Cal Fed, have gone
through all the legal and physical requirements for putting
up their facility. But what neither the City nor Cal Fed
took into account were the people involved, our neighbors.
And I can't speax for anyone else here, of course, but in
my opinion this was a serious mistake by both the City ano
Cal Fed. Even if it isn't legally required, the neighbors
must be taken into consideration and consulted, particularly
on a project of this size.
Then one of the speakers last week said that
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the liaison Company came to a community meeting and explained
their proposed heliport to us and they listened and accepted
some of our advice. And then Title Insurance did the same
thing before they put up their building. And they listened
and accepted some of our advice.
Why didn't City Hall and Cal Fed do this, she
askea. fly only answer is there is no answer. It should have
been done. So, you see, fear of the unknown is sometimes
so overwhelming that reason and logic are forgotten in the
panic of trying to calm that fear.
Now, I sincerely believe that all the cards
had been laid out on the table by the City ana Cal Fed at
one of these community meetings the lady was speaking of.
Then we would not be in this adversary position tonight,
but it isn't too late. In spite of the strong feelings and
fears expressed by those close to the source of the fear,
I believe. we have all benefitted by these proceedings.
I think Cal Fed somewhat belatedly has made a major co nro-!
mise by moving the cogeneration facility building another
180 feet away
from
the
adjoining residential property. I
think they've
made
some
more compromises in the stuff they
gave us tonight.
The Calvo Bill that we're operating now, not
the more relaxed Baker Bill that will become effective in
January of '82 it says straight out that neither City
nor Cal Fed nor the people of Rosemead had any say in allow-
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ing the cogeneration equipment to be installed. Cal Fed
has complied with all those state-mandated requirements.
Now, I would like to read you a letter dated
Novemoer S, 1961, from the State of California, the Gover-
nor's Office of Planning and Research.
"The State Clearinghouse has received one
copy of a draft negative declaration for the
California Federal Savings 6 Loan Association
cogeneration plant facility. We will not
circulate the document for state review, as there
are not state sponsor or trustee agencies involved
and the project does not meet the minimum
requirements for regional or statewide significance
as outlined in the EIR guidelines. We will retain
the document for our information only."
What they were really saying was why did you
send this up here? That's the state of California speaking.
i~ow, there has been some mention of the number
of generators required by tnis facility. I recently retired
from the Data Processing Department of Los Angeles County.
We have or the County has just a minute. I'll be
accurate. They have three 600-Kilowatt diesel generators;
one 600-kilowatt diesel generator and they're going to in-
stall one more 600-kilowatt diesel generator and this in
Downey. These generators serve only the computers. The cot-
puters that are there are comparable in size to the computer
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that is going to be installed in the Cal Fed project and
tney're incidentally, from what I understand, they're
going to have to add another one within another couple of
years. This one will take approximately the same amount
of power, somewhat less. That works out to be one 600-kilo-
watt generator for each computer. These are standby only
and they only supply power to the computer. The computer
requires an enormous amount of electric power; a big com-
puter requires an enormous amount of electric power. And
611 ;a lowatts is not all that much for one computer.
One other thing about the Calvo Bill. There
was some remark made tonight about what if we run short
of natural gas. The Calvo Bill states that cogeneration
plants using natural gas shall receive the highest priority.
That means I'm not going to be able to heat my house if
there is a cogeneration plant. I'm not saying that I like
it. I'm saying that is what the Calvo Bill says.
I've already told you a little hit about some
of the permits and some of the applications. The Huntington
Memorial Hospital is in the application stage at the pres-
ent time and it has not been granted yet. But when I talks
to Mr. Schwain at the AQMD he's one of the engineers
over there he told me that we would have no choice here
either and I don't know how many of you have visited Hunt-
ington memorial or know where it is, but it is right smack
dab in the middle of a residential area.
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Now, I really don't know what additional infor-
mation a full EIR will supply and it would not affect the
granting of the permit for a cogeneration plant. I would
like to turn it over to the next Commissioner, Mr. hlattern.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Commissioner Ritchie.
Commissioner Nlattern?
COMMISSIONER MATTERN: Mr. Chairman, there is not
much I can add after Commissioner Ritchie. There have been
several agencies that have looked at it, Energy Systems,
Ultra Systems. The State has looked at it. The South Coast
Air Quality Management District. There is nothing further
I can add.
That's all I have right now, ilr. Chairman'.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Commissioner Mattern.
Any other discussion by the Commissioners?
The only thing I would have to add with
that Mr. Ritchie and Mr. Schymos covered my remarks 'very
well, but personally, gentlemen, I would like to see an
EIR on this. The EIR request is better for the health,
betterment of the community and the welfare of the commu-
nity. For these reasons, the negative declaration has been
prepared. I understand it would give the benefit of every-
thing to everybody.
I would really in this case like to go and have
the benefit of an EIR. That would be the only thing I could
add. If there is nothing further by the Commissioners, the
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Chair will entertain a motion.
COP,ii%iISSIONER SCHYMOS: Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN: Commissioner Schymos?
CON114ISSIONER SCHYMOS: Concerning your remarks about
the full EIR, I don't believe that a full EIR would alter
this at all. I believe that it is within the guidelines
set forth by these agencies. Therefore, it appears to me
that it would be a waste of time.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: I can't hear.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: I say that I don't believe
that a full EIR would make any difference in the decision
here because I believe that all of the if we can believe
the numbers that have been laid before us, I believe that
they're within the guidelines set forth by all the agencies.
Therefore, I don't know that an EIR would do anything but
create a lot more expense and slow the process up.
I did make a notation here that it would appear
that a full EIR might have some impact on satisfying the
people here who are opposed to it and possibly it might
soften the blows, so to speak, a little. But I don't know
that this really would.
Getting back to what intr. Ritchie was speaking
of, I have lived in the City of Rosemead for many, many
years. And when I came here, as a matter of fact, :1lalnut
Grove was a 16-foot road, the street that I live or.. You
could go out and lay down in the street anc an automobile
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wouldn't run over you because it was a dead-end street.
When they were going to put the bridge over
the wash, there were hundreds ofpeople that went before
the Commission and opposed that bridge over the wash. But
it happened and they lived through it and now they're quite
happy that it did happen.
So anytime there is a change that is going to
be made, there is going to be opposition. Somebody mentioned
there would be four smokestacks emitting pollution. You
il;imediately picture that as being a rubber plant or some-
thing where you see that 150-foot smokestack that is 35
feet in diameter billowing smoke out and blowing down the
air. But it isn't this way at all. These engines will be
burning natural gas. The emission that does come out, you
won't be able to see.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: You can't see what is
killing you.
C01461ISSIONER SCHYIAOS: I'm only going by what I read.
I'm not an expert.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: Why 'make a decision then?
COMMISSIONER SCHY640S: I'm talking about what I read.
We have to take the expert's word. When you go to a doctor
and the doctor says you have got pneumonia, you don't say,
"Hell, I don't think you're right," and go out and die,
do you? So you are not an expert there.
I don't appreciate you laughing when I say I'm.
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not an expert. You are not experts, yet you say we don't
want the plant.
A VOICE FROh-1 THE AUDIENCE: That's our opinion.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: We have a foundation here for
reasons for believing that it's possibly a good thing for
the area. Many people I've heard say that they're opposed
to it simply because they're opposed. No other reason.
So, with that, I'll pass it to someone else
who wants to have something to say.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Commissioner Schymos.
Any of the other Commissioners have any comments
to make? Anything else?
If not, the Chair will entertain a motion. Do
you want to make a motion?
There is no motion on the floor.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Mr. Chairman, I at this
point I think that Cal Fed has added some things that
they said that they would do, and I'm talking about now
the monitoring agreement. And we're here on the design
review and the movement of their central plant facility
from the original location to where it is shown on tine red
outline there. I think that this should be discussed to
find out whether we're in agreement on that or whether we
recommend and the additional proposed condition of the
quarterly monitoring of their plant, the Air Quality ;+Ianage-
meet District recommended once a year. Cal Fed says "no,
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we'll do it every three months." So I think that that, 1\1r.
Chairman, is a step in the right direction.
But as I said in my remarks, it's too bad this)
wasn't done last January. Then I think that we would have
all been much better informed than we are today. And I'll
never ever personally allow this to happen again. It's too
hard on all of us; it's too hard on all of us, believe me.
I think we should discuss some of these things, Mr. Chair-1
man. There has been some mention of the people up on the
hill, that they would be subject to an increase in the noise
level. Again I only have to use, like Mr. Schmymos, the
expert's opinion. And this is from Purcell 6 Noppe again,
and they say that regarding the noise emission and the
vibration level. That concern has been expressed that the
hillside residents and I'm reading from their letter
to Mr.
Carmona -
- "concern has
been
expressed
that the
hill-
side
residents
on the south
side
of Yarrow
Street
would
have a line of sight to the roof of the relocated facility)
which might in turn mitigate the effectiveness of the des-
cribed acoustical shielding. 1:Je have observed the site con-
ditions and found that the nearest resident which would
have a line of sight to the roof of the facility Nrould be
located at a distance of more than 300 feet from the pro-
posed relocation site."
I'm still quoting: "'re find that the noisei
attenuation provided at this distance would coi,ipensate fora,
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the loss of acoustic shielding."
Now, I don't want to get into a lot of engi-
neering talk here, but I think everybody realizes that--
you know, like on your camera when you adjust the aperture
opening, when it says you go from f28 to f4 you're letting
only half the light in. Then when you go from f4 to f56,
you are only letting half of the f4 in. So you are really
now at one-fourth of the f28. So in sound it varies similar
to light, but not exactly the same because sound is a
molecular movement. It's not electromagnetic. It's a molec-
ular motion. The attenuation or how much it decreases is
halved each time the distance is doubled from the source
which means that if you are at 40 dBA 200 feet away that
you would be somewhere between 6 and 10 dBA. Less than that
if you were 400 feet away, and even less if you were 500
feet away. And I don't think this would increase the noise
level 500 feet away at all.
And again I want to say and there has been
some mention of the fact that the wind doesn't always blow
from the southwest. That's true. When we have the Santa
Ana condition, it blows from the northeast or some other
direction, anyway.
And I agree with you that under those particular
conditions because sound is a molecular movement that
those people that may be subject to some increase in the
sound level, but I think that these would oe very small.
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Now, like I say, if you want to further discuss the idea
of cogeneration and what it means there has oeen much
discussion here about "well, put it somewhere else." Well,i
there
isn't anywhere
else. People
say, "
well, put
it
out)
on the
desert." The
Department of
Water
and Power
or
the
Edison Company I don't know which it was wanted to
put one up at Boron and the desert people said, "No, vie
cion't want it out there. It's going to spoil the whole
ecology of the desert." They had to stop. There it is, in
the Edison Company-serviced area, a thousand watts of co-
generation power that they need so that they will not have
to build another large public utility generation plant.
Now they have, as I understand it from speaking to the AQMD
engineers again they have approximately 800 megawatts
of this cogeneration power committed. eihat this means is
that this area is expanding and growing and we're having
more business and more buildings and more manufacturing
and more of everything.
If Cal Fed or a Union Bank or any other facil-
ity, the Huntington Memorial Hospital well, I shouldn't
bring them in because I'm talking about new installations.
The Edison Company could
not
supply
the
power
required
for tnis additional use with
the
plants
that
they
have on line at the present time. And there is no way tnatI
they can ever get a permit to build another large generating)
plant in tnis area or even close.
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i,;aybe I'm talking over your head; I hope not.
A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: No, you're not.
ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: We're not all dumb.
COMPaISSIONER RITCHIE: Mr. Chairman, could we discuss
some of these?
THE CHAIRMAN: Let's take them point by point, if
you wish. Do you want to start off with the first point,
i4r. Ritchie"?
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Well, Cal Fed came in tonight
and said two things. One of them was that they agreed to
inove the building over to where it is shown, next to the
Phase I on the north I don't call it the northwest. I
want to call it the northerly line and close to the west-
erly side of the Phase I building. I think that that should
be included in any conditions that we propose to put on
these people. I think that Cal Fed has said that and they
have given us the additional proposed condition measure
whicn they agree to have Emission Control Systems monitor
their installation every three months rather than every
12 months as recommended by the Air Quality Management Dis-
trict. I think these two things should be added.
I have a question that may not be answerable
at the present time. Mr. Schwartz brought up the question
that I asked regarding the continuous monitoring of the
emissions from this plant. He in his statement about the
cc,t of this just confirmed what I had heard from the .-U11:1)
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engineer that I spoke to today or Friday. I spoke to hi.n
on Friday and then I spoke to him again today. The question
tnat I have is and like I say, I don't know whether this
could be answered at this time or not. And that is would
Beckman Instruments monitor and the Control Systems Company
be used to monitor all four engines? Do you know that, Mr.
Schwartz?
MR. SCHWARTZ: You have to asK those gentlemen there.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: I guess you may have guessed
by now that my background is in engineering. Like I say,
it may not be answerable at this time, but I think that
it could be if each exhaust were monitored separately.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Benzian, would you like to respond?
MR. BENZIAN: I would like, if I may, Mr. Chairman
and Mr. Hitchie, to introduce Carl Martineau of Energy Plan-
ning Systems, Inc., who prepared the cogeneration feasibil-
ity study for Cal Fed and for Albert C. Martin & Associates.
And I think he may be able to address the Commission.
THE CHAIRe,IAN: Sir, would you come up to the micro-
phone and give your name, please.
i+IR. MARTINEAU: Carl with a C, Martineau,
lvi-a-r-t-i-n-e-a-u. Our firm are not specialists in emission
controls. However, we have had some experience both in
emission controls and in instrumentation for emission con-
trols. From a technical standpoint, the answer to your ques-
tion would oe yes. Not on a continuous basis, out you can
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monitor one for 15 minutes and then switch over and monitor
the next one for 15 minutes. So you eventually get a short
period of monitoring of both the units.
The problem with that type of approach, however,
is not so much the initial expense of the unit is
these types of instruments require almost continual cali-
oration. And it's an immense effort to maintain continuous
monitoring equipment so that it gives you accurate results.
I think that the City would be better served
and would be able to have greater confidence in periodic
measurements at some agreed frequency by a testing outfit
that comes in and makes its measurements rather than relying
on the maintenance calibration, care and upkeep of on-
site continuous monitoring equipment. I think it would be
a disservice to the citizens of the city in terms of their
confidence to go the continuous monitoring approach.
COMMISSIOHER RITCHIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
At this point in time I don't know what the
answer would be. I, from an engineering standpoint, tend
to agree with iv1r. Martineau. 1 think that the offer of Cal
Fed to monitor this every three months and that the copies
of such reports shall be furnished to the Planning Depart-
ment of the City of Rosemead and be available for public
review. I think that this is and again I repeat a
somewhat belated compromise, or whatever you want to call
it, from Cal Fed. I am very disappointed that we didn't
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talk about this situation long ago. It saddens me that we
haven't. Whatever sway that I may have with the powers that
oe, this will never happen again.
With that, I think that I would like to repeat
at this time what the attachment to the environmental as-
sessment form and attachment to the negative declaration
will be, and these are the conditions that we now have or
are recommended: Steel enclosures surrounding each engine
generator and a one-gap engine around the generator pads.
This is what I was telling you about, the one-inch asphalt
fioerglass impregnated to stop the vibration and a founda-
tion cylinder equivalent to a universal ENS Series cylinder.
That's the spring things. And the enclosure of all the me-
chanical equipment within eight-inch concrete walls and
a design of cogeneration facility so that there are no open-
ings on the west, north, and south walls of the facility;
and to install stack noise plenum, IAC sheet metal enclo-
sures. vJhat that means is they're going to take air in and
slow it down before it ever reaches the input so that there
won't be any rush of noise. It's the high rush of noise.
You know yourself that if you take a muffler or exhaust
and its this big around (indicating), it's not as loud if
it's that big around. And that is what they want to do.
They want to slow the velocity of the air coming into the
engines down with these plenu;n chambers and the pipes and
cucts will be hung with vibration isolator hangers anti
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installea Baltimore air coil round traps with cooling
coaxers. This is another measure they nave taken with the
cooling tower. And in addition to that, in other vibration
and/or acoustical systems as noted in the applicant's plans
and specifications. These are the things I read off to you
earlier. And its incorporation of air emission controls,
catalytic converters on the cogeneration equipment which
reduces the emission of any contaminant to below 150 pounds
per day, and more specifically reduce hydrocarbon emissions
to approximately 22 pounds a day, carbon monoxide emissions
to approximately 95 pounds a day, and nitrogen oxygen to
approximately 146 pounds per day if all four.engine gener-
ators are operated 24 hours a day; a landscaping plan that
includes planting of mature eucalyptus trees along the
westerly side of the cogeneration facility.
Now, I don't know whether that will apply in
this case where they moved it this far and they're going
to add some stuff. I don't know at this time what Cal Fed
proposes to do in that regard.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
ask Mr. he seems to indicate that he would like to
respond to that.
MR. BEN'LIAN: Yes, .dr. Chairman, Commissioner Ritchie,
Cal Fed would propose utilizing essentially the sa:r,e land-
scape plan and specifically mature eucalyptus tree even
in the revised location.
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Now, the only distinction in the landscaping
plan would be that I can't recall exactly the distance
between this, the revised location and how the parxing cir-
culation and the driveway that we would need to be required;
so that I don't think we're going to have a 10-foot space
of shrubbery between that west wall and the property line
as has been described in our prior landscaping plans. But
the intent would still be to install I believe the number
is six or eight mature eucalyptus trees along the east-
erly wall of this facility to provide shielding and also
to include the flower-covered vines that would be planted
on the wall.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Mr. Chairman, the flower=
covered vines planned for the chain-link fence would still
apply and
MR. BEi`ZIAN: Yes, sir. And those vines are also
intended to be planted at the base of the facility along
the westerly wall. We understand from our landscape archi-
tect, Mr. wemple, that within a period of approximately
three years those vines should cover essentially the entire
wall.
C0M,4ISSI0NER RITCHIE: If I understand it, Mr. Benz-
ian, ;,Ir. Chairman, he's saying that the landscaping plan
on the westerly side of the cogeneration plant will be
essentially the same as was planned where it was previously.
?IR. BENZIAN: That's correct.
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P.Iay I just make one point of clarification on
one of the other conditions that you noted. There was a
statement to the effect that there would be no openings
on the north, south, or westerly walls of the cogeneration
facility. Now, there our plans have shown from the begin-
ning two openings on the northerly and the southerly wall,
openings in the sense that on one side there is a sliding
concrete door and on the other side a door that is required,
as I under stand it, because of the Fire Code, and Mr.
iienkler, the project supervisor, can describe those facil-
ities more specifically.
MR. WENKLER: We have a manned door on this side with
a sound seal and also a vestibule inside of that door,
separated again by the four-inch metal on this side. Again,
we have a manned door, again required for fire protection.
You exit with a soundtrack on the inside so no noise will
go directly out. One door will always be shut.
These are only used by the maintenance engi-
neers. There is, on this side, a door that is 12 feet high,
approximately 9 feet wide made of concrete rolling, and
when it is rolled into position, there is a pneumatic bulb
that expands out between its surface and that of the exter-
ior wall to seal out the sound from leaking out at that
point. Those are all the recommendations made to us to meet
the sound objectives by Purcell & Noppe. So we have a 12-
foot high concrete rolling door. It is a big object and
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it will only be opened very periodically when we have to
bring in or take out a fairly large piece of equipment.
Other than that, we have a tnree-foot manned door that would
be used for daily in-and-out purposes.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Mr. Chairman, I would like
to see then this particular requirement or condition re-
written to state Mr. Wenkler, was it?
MR. WENKLER: Correct.
COmmISSIONER RITCHIE: what Mr. Wenkler just said
about the seals around the large door and the fact that
it will only be used to take equipment in and out and that
normally the personnel will enter from the east side; is
tinat correct?
MR. WENKLER: Yes, there is; that's correct, yes.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Thank you.
To continue, the use of high-quality textured
concrete materials for the construction of the walls of
the cogeneration facility that will reduce noise and present
a visually pleasing exterior. The incorporation of isolator
springs and an 18-incn concrete slab for the engine genera-
tors as set forth in Cal Fed's plan wnicn eliminate per-
ceptible vibration.
Now, this includes the one-inch asphalt fiber-
glass. In other words, to make a dealie like this ano put
a concrete thing in the middle of it, surrounded by this
asphalt and fiberglass.
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I would like to add the additional proposed
condition of three times a year or four times a year,
rather, quarterly monitoring and the copies of such report
as outlined in Cal Fed's offer here.
I don't know what else to say unless there are
some questions that I might possibly answer. Somebody has
to do it.
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I move, fair. Chairman, that we approve the fil-
ing of the negative declaration and approve the design
review of the cogeneration facility subject to the condi-
tions as stated.
I'll change that into two motions, Mr. Chair-
man.
THE CHAIRMAN:
Let's just take them one at
a time,
Mr.
Ritchie.
COMMISSIONER
RITCHIE: I make a motion I'
ll make
two
motions, one
on the negative declaration and
one.on
the
design review.
I move
that the Planning Commission
approve
the
filing of a negative declaration of this project, with
the
specific finding that with the incorporation,
of the
conditions, there
will not be a significant effect
on =ne
environment.
COLLIISSIONER
iIATTERN: I'll second that, 1'lX. C
hairman.
THE CHAIRMAN
: You also seconded the design
revie:•:?
COMMISSIONER
4ATTERN: Yes.
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C0i,MISISGijE'1i RITCHIE: i4o, I've riot made the motion
on the design review.
THE CHAIRMAN: It has been motioned by Mr. Ritchie
and seconded by Mr. Mattern, as amended and agreed.
Call for the question.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: Question.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please vote.
(Commissioners Decocker, Schymos, Hitchie and
idattern voted yes and Commissioner Lowrey voted no.)
THE CHAIRMAN: The Chair wili entertain a motion on
the design review.
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE:: Mr. Lowrey is pretty safe.
T14E CHAIRMAN: The Chair will entertain a motion.
COMMISSIONER DECOCKER: I move the Planning Commission
approve Design Review 81-6, subject to conditions contained
in tide initial study and those conditions as indicated by
Commissioner Ritchie.
COMMISSIONER SCHYi,iOS: I'll second that motion, Mr.
Chairman.
THE CHAIRGiAIJ: It has been moved by Commissioner
Decocker and seconded by Commissioner Scnymos to approve.
Call for the question.
COMkISSIONER SCHYMOS: Question.
COJAMISSIONER RITCHIE: I would like to, v:r. Chairman.,
if I may, ask the maker of the motion if he included in
his motion that he said subject to the conditions in the
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initial study. I don't think that these are the conditions
that we discussed here tonight, Mr. Chairman. I think we
should make it very plain that these are not the conditions
in the initial study, but the conditions in the initial
study plus those other conditions that were discussed here
tonight.
COMi.IISSIONER SCHYMOS: That's what I indicated. I
don't believe that that was the motion.
Would it be possible to read the motion back,
Dir. Chairman?
'THE CHAIRMAN: Lydia?
THE SECRETARY: I don't have the full motion.
COM14ISSIONEII RITCHIE: I just wanted to make it clear,
Fir. Chairman, that those additional conditions that we
talked about and discussed tonight were included in this
design review.
COMMISSIONER SCHYMOS: Would that motion satisfy you,
Mr. Ritchie?
COMMISSIONER RITCHIE: Yes.
THE, CHAIRMAN: Does the second still stand?
COMMISSIONER SCHYDIOS: Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: It has been moved by Commissioner
Decocker and seconded by Commissioner Schymos. A yes vote
would be for.
Call for the question.
Col%li~IISSIONER SCHYMOS: Question.
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THE CHAIRMAN: Please vote.
(Commissioners DecocKer, Schymos, Ritchie
and Mattern voted yes and Commissioner Lowrey
voted no.)
THE CHAIRMAN: With that, is there any other business
to come before this Commission tonight? If not, the Chair
will entertain a motion and adjourn.
(The proceedings adjourned at 11:15 p.m.)
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STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
ss.
COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
I, RTi.i.TF .in Honar., RR 1"35 a Notary
Public in and for the State of California, do hereby certify:
That the foregoing transcript was recorded
stenographically by me at the time and place herein named,
and was thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction
and supervision;
That the foregoing comprises a true and correct
copy of the proceedings had and reported by me.
I hereby certify that I am not interested in the
event of the action.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name and
affixed my seal this lst day of December 1981 .
co(
Notary Public in and for
State of California.
t o
r a ~a
b jl
SNYDER NEATNCOTE. INC.. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS